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Sonic Classic 2

Discussion in 'Fangaming Discussion' started by Hez, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. Hez


    Odd -- ForEach object isn't used anywhere. Regardless, the link to the file is below.

    I am trying to reach back far in my memory, because I remember this being fixed by something super silly.
  2. Mr. Ksoft

    Mr. Ksoft

    To my knowledge DirectX is actually the issue here. Problem is, "DirectX not installed" is misleading; it's more that modern Windows doesn't ship parts of the legacy DX9/10/11 runtime out of the box any more. Joystick2 loses its mind because it can't find the old XInput 1.3 API. Installing the old DX9 End-User Runtime should solve it.
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  3. saxman


    Oldbie Tech Member
    Installing the DirectX runtimes did the trick! Thanks Mr. Ksoft!

    I have had some time to play it. So far, I *really* like it! There are a lot of good things I can say about it, and I will when I have more time. For now, I want to at least leave you with some thoughts I had on areas I think could be improved. I realize this list has some things that are probably low-priority, but since I think would find-tune the quality a bit:


    Options menu:

    * It would be more practical to have music and sound volume level intervals changed in 5s or 10s. It would also be nice if you could change it by holding the left/right keys. Maybe include a way to test the volume for each.
    * Can't wrap selection between Exit and Screen Resolution.

    Controls menu:

    * The text colors clash a bit with the background. I would suggest making the window tint even darker to allow the text to stand out more.
    * It took me a couple seconds before I noticed text selection all the way at the bottom. Perhaps it should start at the top? Or at least have the selection stand out more so it catches the eyes of the player.

    Level Statistics menu:

    * I found it odd the up/down navigation seemed to be reversed.

    Save Select menu:

    * With 14 save slots, it takes a while to get to "DELETE". Perhaps you could have empty slots show only as needed. You could also try using an alternate mechanism for deletion (e.g. a button press). I think Chaotix also has a different way of handling this that might be worth considering.

    In general about menus:

    * Might be nice to have some text for each menu item describing what it does. Some are obvious, but others may be less so at first glance.
    * Allow for holding navigation buttons as opposed to requiring individual button presses (especially when there are a lot of selections).

    In game:

    * Super sneakers don't seem quite fast enough. If my memory is correct (someone keep me straight here), the classic games allow Sonic to move at 16 pixels per second on flat ground. You don't necessarily have to match this exactly, but it definitely feels too slow as it is.
    * Almost seems too easy to get rings with the electric shield's current magnetic pull. I would consider lessening this.
    * I would make it more obvious that there are shields in possesion. Maybe like a little arrow icon or something so the player knows that if that hit the A button, there will be shields to choose from.
    * The end-of-act song seems a little weak. I guess it's an old lower-quality recording of the original? I would get one that is a crisp 44.1kHz or comparable quality.
    * The vine slide stops when you jump off of it. Not sure if this is intentional or not, but it feels wrong. I would opt to keep it going like in Sonic 3.
  4. saxman


    Oldbie Tech Member
    This is an odd bug:


    When I jump, the background changes! When I land again, it goes back to being a forest. Thought this one should get special attention since it's so jarring.
  5. saxman


    Oldbie Tech Member
    Third post in a row. But I have to report my findings/opinions. Consider this likely my last update, unless I make it past that blasted Mercury Mines boss, in which case I'll have new material to possibly comment on:

    === THINGS I LIKE ===
    * The game is a lot of fun and actually feels very authentic in many respects.
    * I love how smooth the animations are.
    * The graphics are really well constructed, and the colors are quite vibrant. I especially like the character graphics.
    * Overall, I like the music. Although a few songs I think are just a touch too busy, overall they're really nice compositions. My favorite songs thus far have been Crystal Coves 1 and Factory Frenzy 1. I have actually had the first one in my head for the past 24 hours or so, which makes it a great song to have for the very first level in the game. Out of curiosity, who did the music?
    * The zone names are nice, and they make good use of extensive vocabulary. Not cringeworthy at all like some fan games (or sadly, some official games in a few instances!). Actually, I might change Carnival Chaos... but it's not that bad really.
    * You have some very creative boss battles.
    * I'm happy to see the amount of work put into this. Part of the payoff is that it's not a short game and has plenty of replay value.

    * The first rock obstacle in Crystal Coves is in an awkward spot. As soon as I get to the top of the ramp and land, I want to immediately jump to the next platform. However, I always seem to run right into the rock before I can even do my jump. I don't even see the rock most of the time until I've already run into it. Maybe move it 16-32 pixels to the right, or remove it altogether.
    * I think there are too many Buzz Bomber badniks gathered in those sections with the two wood platforms in Crystal Coves.
    * I don't like the way Fang's gun works. I wish I could just shoot in the direction I'm pointed (like most platformers) instead of having a moving target. It's very awkward to control.
    * The Mercury Mines boss arena makes for some very cheap deaths. I get it's supposed to be hard, but if I get hurt just once, it's almost a guarantee that I'm going to fall off the platform to my death. I have yet to beat the boss because of how easy it is to get knocked off the platform.
    * Many of the boss battles I find take just a bit too long to give me an opportunity to actually hit the boss. It would be nice if things were speed up just a bit.
    * Level title cards take too long. It takes about 5 seconds to allow me to begin moving. It would be nice if the animation was made just a little faster. When I keep dying on that Mercury Mines boss (*shakes fist*), I like to jump back into play as soon as possible.
    * Took me a while to realize the B and C buttons worked differently for the spindash (as Sonic). Holding B automates the revolutions. I'm not opposed to this approach, but I think it should be consistent. Either have both B and C do this, or neither. And make it the same for all characters (I think I tried as Knuckles, and the B button wasn't acting the same way). I don't think the player needs to have two different buttons for the spindash to work two different ways. If they have a preference, they'll want to use that all the time.
    * On the Time Trials screen, the left/right selection change is obvious because of the arrows. However, the up/down selection is *not*. Took me a few times before I realized I could actually change ACT, MODE, and GHOST. And as I write this, I just realized that "START!" at the bottom is also a selection! I would make this menu work in phases -- select the zone first (like you already have), then select the player, and *then* select all the other stuff.
    * I know I hit on the Controller Setup screen once before, but I feel I really need to emphasize how non-intuitive it is. For example, I know at this point I can test out the controls. But it's not obvious at first (unless I remember/know beforehand) how to do it. It says "TEST CONTROLS" and "START". So I think I need to press Start. But nothing happens! Then I press C, and that works. It is presented as if "START" is a key to perform the action described on the left. Additionally, I don't immediately know how to end the test. Eventually I jump on the platform and figure it out, but why not have some sort of instruction on the screen, and maybe an arrow to the platform indicating that I can jump on it to end the test?
    * I honestly have no clue what Extra Modes is. There's no clear explanation of this screen whatsoever. And it seems all the selections only have a single item to choose, apart from "??????????".
    * Mode Challenges (which appears as just "CHALLENGES" on the main menu) needs to be a little more obvious as to how to navigate it. I pressed down expecting the selection to go to the pictures at the bottom showing Sonic, Super Sonic, etc. Instead, it changed the zone. And then I noticed the arrows around the act number which didn't stand out at first glance. Maybe make the screen less busy and incorporate some big arrows indicating the zone can be changed using up/down.
    * The selection color is very hard to see on the Online Multiplayer screen. I would make that a hard yellow, or maybe even another color like green (or whatever looks nice).
    * Every menu screen should clearly indicate that C selects and A goes back. I figured that out by simply trying those buttons, but I can definitely see where someone might not know that at first.

    === BUGS I FOUND ===
    * Somehow, I started a saved game with zero lives! Not sure how that is even possible, but after I died, I of course got a Game Over. When I played again, I had a full set of lives again.
    * The pause screen with the six menu items allows you to go down to a non-existing seventh menu item.
    * When I "RESTART", it subtracts a life. This makes sense. However, when I'm on my last life, I shouldn't see "RESTART" as an option anymore. Maybe change it to "GIVE UP" (and add the corresponding functionality), or just remove the option altogether. As it is now, it is more or less broken as it doesn't actually do anything.
    * Sometimes I land on a spring, and it doesn't actually do anything. It acts as a regular platform.
    * Sometimes the buttons "stick". I don't know why. I'm using a keyboard, so maybe it's that. Not sure if you have a way to really correct this behavior or not.

    Overall, you've done a really nice job with this. I'm finding myself actually wanting to play all the way through, unlike most fan games where I would have put it down after an hour.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
  6. Hez


    Amazing feedback Sax! I'll be releasing a hot-fix tonight that will be fixing a lot of major things, but I'm definitly adding these suggestions/bugs to the log to be worked on. I appreciate the detailed feedback. I love it!
  7. Yoritoshi


    São Paulo
    Cosmic Boll
    Very great level design in general. The game was very worth the wait and I loved to see the Cameltry special stages working on Clickteam Fusion. Looking foward for the expansions.

    -Music isn't playing on the bonus levels. The gumball one gets glitched sometimes such that no matter how much I flip the crank, the items just get stuck on the machine.
    -Enough bosses were about waiting for Eggman to show up on either side of the screen to get a hit in that I left the game forgetting if the others were any different.
    -Mines boss is harsh and I ended up getting past thanks to unlimited retries from reaching the last checkpoint with almost 100 rings, but it was fun figuring it out. It's fitting how it uses one of Oil Ocean Boss' attacks, given how the remade one in Mania is also a tough one. Maybe make an empty minecart appear over the the side opposite to Eggman that falls down shortly after the player steps on it and that stops appearing after being used once or twice.
    -Is Fang's bottom path of the first zone really supposed to lack any rings?
    -Graphical effects at Carnival Chaos and Space Chase, and the whole final battle make the game's performance take a dive. Guess we can blame Fusion on this one?
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  8. Sally Rose

    Sally Rose

    will you let us know which version has the true final level and the exta games enaled? im on ver 0.8.20 atm is there a new ver i should get? im not playing untill the final level is avalable, i want my first time to be perfect. hehe
  9. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    Here's my report after experiencing this game; it's been a few days since I played it, so I might have forgotten something that seemed important at the moment. For the record, this all is from a Sonic alone run that lasted up to the boss of Murky Mines.

    - The options menu doesn't save my key setup. I wanted to have no button for the auto-spindash and the dropdash linked to the main button instead of the alternate one, and I tried to set it up that way on each session (it was a run in three sessions), but it was no use.

    - I've read here this is intentionally a demo version with blocked options. Stating that in-game somehow would help, because, as it's presented, specially with all those locked options, it's a bit confusing and dissapointing.

    - Emerald colour order shown on the save slot doesn't match the one on the special stage results screen.

    - My general experience about the game so far is a bit mixed. Level design is miles better than most fangames, which I appreciate since it's one of the things I pay more attention to in a world of pre-made engines, but the game doesn't feel enjoyable enough as it has been released because there's a lot of things that aren't conveyed enough and some other anti-fun moments that make me want to not go back to it unless I invest more patience than I should or serious changes are made to solve its issues.

    - Another thing to mention about controls is that this thread was the only reason I learned about "stored" shields, because it isn't explained or suggested in any place, and I wouldn't expect to collect them when classic games didn't allow it.

    - A lot of platforms are a bit too high and can only be reached through weird collision behaviours that, while don't invalidate the level design, are a bit counter-intuitive and shouldn't rely on glitches. I don't think I've ever exploited a glitch in a game as much as this game forces me to in these cases.

    - Special stages were a bit obnoxious on start, but it got better later. This is one of those things I say aren't well conveyed, because there's so many types of blocks/circles and no instruction manual to learn about them. Well, and S1 special stages where the hardest ones for me in the classics so they aren't my favourite choice, but that's a personal appreciation.

    - Speaking of special stages, I have a bug to report: once I entered a SS that I had previously failed, and I got thrown out automatically as soon as I spawned there as if I had already touched a goal. I also think I spawned at a different location than the level's start and yet still not touching a goal circle, but I don't know the level enough nor had enough time to check this out.

    - Bonus stages suffer from a similar issue of lack of conveyance, only it's worse and causes more bugs, so they're not worth the fight and I avoid entering them most of the time. Generally speaking, they're more complex or at least less obvious thant the ones they're based on, so they're familiar enough to play them biased and alien enough to not learn how to handle the differences.

    - In the slot machine one, I had trouble to learn how to shoot Sonic, needed a couple of tries until I managed to activate it, and never managed to do more than one shot because I couldn't go back to the platform. It also isn't nice that the first time you get into it you get a full ring loss either, so I got enough reasons to not bother using this bonus stage.

    - The gumball machine is the bonusstage closest to the original one in how it's played, however the setup is very odd and makes harder to make multiple tries or get what it drops; in other words, it's not worth the time invested. It's not like I liked the original, but I could get a single item and go out quickly on that one.

    - The glowing spheres one is the most enticing one and looks close enough to the original on surface, but it feels more like a cage where I can't see how to proceed. I liked the original one because it was a level of vertical progression where the higher, the better items. This one seems like horizontal gameplay through vertical gimmicks that play against you.

    - While, at this point, you'll probably want to tell me to git gud at these bonus stages, the main reason to not play them, however, is a bug happening upon exiting them: a lot of times, when I come out of any of them, I find myself with no rings or shield. Prior to learning about the shield storage, this essentially meant the bonus stages had a high chance of not only not giving me anything, but also taking everything from me. This is still true for rings.

    - I find difficulty of bosses inconsistent at every level: some of them are quite hard or cheap, some others are spot-on with classic games or are even easier, and level number won't matter. For example, the first boss seemed unnecessarily hard for a first level (not that hard overall), so I was scared of what I would find later, only to beat the next two bosses so easily even if it was abusing ring-vincibility that I was relieved and even disappointed about how easy they were (and that's being too easy considering my standards). Then the boss of the three elevators came and was easy enough, but with a lot of very cheap hits, and, of course, when I got a game over on the boss of Murky Mines, I just didn't bother playing again. I think difficulty should be consistent, and also that anything harder than the Death Egg Robot from S2 shouldn't exist; I don't play Sonic games to have tricky fights, there are tons of games for that. I know this last part is my personal opinion, but most of the game adheres to the usual Sonic difficulty, so getting such difficulty spikes in the form of bosses is somewhat jarring.

    - Placement of bouncing gimmicks in Carnival Chaos is a bit too much and looks quite untested. There's a difference between the "bouncing pit traps" of Casino Night and a moment here when I thought I had virtually soft-locked between three objects arranged in a way where they were too close to each other and positioned in a way I needed to find the single pixel that would allow me to escape, and said escape took a while. The level is quite oversaturated of objects in general, they make this level really hard to traverse and made me want to flee instead of explore. So far, the worst level for my tastes.

    - The water spouts in Relic Retreat are quite wonky: one of them even managed to throw me to the left inside the wall there, causing a soft-lock, but they had weird collisions and behaviour in general.

    - In Murky Mines, I entered a Special Ring that required me to break a wall with a rolling boulder, and I couldn't exit the room when I teleported back because the wall had regenerated, prompting a soft-lock.

    That's all I can think of from the top of my head; the rest, either has already been said, I can't remember of, or are more cases of lack of conveyance which you can probably guess by yourself at this point. I hope I haven't been disrespectful here, I only wanted to give you thorough feedback.
  10. Hez


    Releasing a hotfix today. If any of the fixes created bigger ones, I'll release a hotfix...hotfix? hothotfix? Anyway, I tried to document the major changes below. The file size is also bigger because it has all soundtracks now.

    Special Shout out to Chopp and Lighto for doing some of the fixes as well

    • Space Chase soft lock while respawning at a checkpoint fixed
    • Final Boss tweaked to resolve softlocks. Timer has also been adjusted
    • Murky Mines Boss changed. Platform enlarged by 32 pixels, along with rocks on other side of boss being able to be smashed, putting the player back on the platform. The bomb also no longer sprays particles.
    • Super Sonic Palette fixed for Sonic and Tails mode
    • Added animations to the switch activated pillars in Murky Mines
    • Murky Mines respawning issues (hopefully) addressed
    • Fangs Ammo Bar moves during boss now
    • Fang fixed in Murky Mines
    • Time ends after defeating boss (this may not be the case for one or two I missed)
    • Tails assist added (I'm only one person though, so let me know if it bugs anything. I only tested the first level)
    • Title Screen Graphics revamped by Bennascar
    • Fixed some Knuckles Gliding issues
    • Fixed some issues in the unlockables screen (These are still in a testing phase though, so some modes may break a normal runthrough. Note it in the bugs if it does)
    • Added safeguards to special stages (If you are out of bounds it will put you back in)
    • Fixed various badniks for pause menu
    • Shield Storage system tweaked by Chopp

    • Online Mode 8 player limit removed.
    • Various items tweaked for online mode

    There are also various layout tweaks. Not all bugs have been addressed yet, only the major ones. So keep noting bugs and suggestions, and keep an eye out for another hot-patch in two weeks or so.
  11. Jlook


    Genesis and Dreamcast Era was best Member
    This is great Hez! Now people can see the ending without getting softlocked!
  12. saxman


    Oldbie Tech Member
    Quick thought at a late hour... might be fun to allow custom BG_Music folders be placed in the path for composers to make their own soundtracks without overwriting the ones being packaged with the game. Then they could be made downloadable. Not sure how many people would actually create custom soundtracks, but with a game as good as this one, I bet someone would certainly be tempted. Like *ahem* me *cough*. Just a passing thought.

    When I have some time, I will sit down and dedicate more time to the updated version. So far, what I see looks good. Here are just a small number of bullets:

    * The title screen graphics look quite nice!
    * I had fun experimenting with the different soundtracks. I don't like that it bloats the size of the download, but I think it's a neat feature otherwise.
    * Is it me or did you make the manual spindash a bit more powerful than before? It felt underpowered, but now it feels about right.
    * Also, a couple times I seem to have grabbed Tails, but I couldn't actually figure out how I did it.
  13. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Working on my art!
    I gotta say that Carnival Chaos track B variant? That is some peak banger clown music.

    Really all of Soundtrack B is just brilliant. Like a Sonic CD 2
  14. LordOfSquad


    bobs over baghdad Member
    Winnipeg, MB
    making cool music no one gives a shit about
    This guy too lol. I actually made my own custom soundtrack for Classic 1 with Fearofdark's music, it was pretty sick.

    But yes, congrats on the release Hez! It's been a long time coming and I know you're still working hard to fix up things but it still must feel liberating to share all this work after so much time. I haven't played it yet (waiting for bugfixes and haven't been in the mood to sit in front of the PC downstairs while it's still nice out), but certainly looking forward to my first playthrough.
  15. Sally Rose

    Sally Rose

    Just tryed the game two things to note. Fang cant shoot in mine act 2 makeing him unable to progress. Also its too easy to chease bosses as fang. You should make bosses for fang harder or change hit detection rules to force fang to play a more risky game otherwise you can just sit and take pot shots at them. Also even when sonic some bosses seam to lack bite. Maybe increase boss difficulty over all. Eager to play that final final boss soon hope it releases soon. Also any luck on a Random Music option? Id love to set it to random and then every act it is random a b or c thatd be dope af. You could also implament my boss hardness as a hardcore dificulty mode too. I like a chalange you see.

    Oh also theres this one spceal stage behind a ice blocks in the frozen level that if you use will leave you softlocked on exit as theres no way to break the ice to escape. Other than this this game is easly a sonic mania 2 if not even better
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2021
  16. saxman


    Oldbie Tech Member
    So far, here's what I have to report:

    * When you first enter the lower path of Crystal Cove 1, the first Crabmeat badnik you come across can actually move inside the wall to his left.
    * In Crystal Cove 2 in the lower path, you can cause the background to change if you jump high enough. This occurs just a little ways after the first spring badnik at the top of the next ramp.
    * The spikes sitting in the grass on the left side of the rising platform, right before you exit the lower path, don't actually have any collision to them.
    * Misaligned object in Crystal Cove 2. The rope doesn't meet up properly with it's post sitting on top of one of the loop-de-loops.
    * I got zapped by a Buzz Bomber and died. But it played the death-by-spikes sound instead of the normal death sound.

    * I wish there was a shield priority that would prevent certain shields (like the standard S1/S2 shield) from replacing the more advanced shields. I didn't know the game would do this when it happened to me, but moreover, I also didn't realize I wasn't able to carry any more shields.
    * I almost feel Fang should have the ability to throw bombs. Those walls that the other characters can spindash through could be blown out that way. Might be fun.

    Double-posting again so these don't get lost:

    * I just discovered you can hold the B button on the save select screen to initiate deletion. However, the button hold counter doesn't seem to reset when the button is released, so you can still initiate it if you repeatedly press B.
    * Sonic can stop tunneling by pressing the B button at any point. This allows me to walk through tunnels without spinning.
    * It seems to me that Fang should be able to bunch on multiple monitors in succession like the other characters instead of having to jump again each time.
    * As Fang is leaving the underground portion of Rustic Ruins 1, the background changes prematurely, showing the outside ~48 pixels too early. But that's if you ignore the area exposed below (i.e. look down), or the area above (i.e. jump). Those above and below areas should be masked so you can't see the background.
    * I'm pretty sure this was pointed out by someone else, but I entered the special stage with an electric shield, got a bubble shield while I was there, and had NO shield at all when I returned.
    * In Murky Mines 1, one of the elevating platforms you run on to raise or lower at the very end of the level can actually move beyond its track.
    * One of the spinning wooden platforms with the spikes attached under it killed me instantly, even though I had rings.
    * It seems Tails can't collect rings to help Sonic out when on one of the breakaway platforms in Murky Mines? I literally saw him go through rings and not collect them.
    * I (finally) beat the Murky Mines boss once I understood the full pattern. I had zero rings by the end of it. When I looked at the RINGS counter after the battle was over, I noticed it was stuck showing the red color.
    * I paused the game (while still on Murky Mines) to write that issue about the RINGS counter being red... and the game is now frozen! I can't unpause it or do anything at all. CURSE YOU MURKY MINES!

    * Sometimes Tails tried to assist at the most inopportune times which actually caused me to mess up a little. I'm still not sure how the Tails assist works. I would continue to tweak this (however it works).
    * Fang starts underground on Rustic Ruins without any indication how he got there. In Sonic 3K, whenever Knuckles starts elsewhere, it's because he left the previous level by taking another route. Maybe consider having him leave the previous level in a different fashion.
    * When you have a combi-ring, there RINGS text turns blue. Great way to let the player know they have it. When the player has zero rings, it just flashes red/yellow. Maybe have it flash red/blue instead?
    * Bosses are *way* too easy playing as Fang. I would give him different bosses, or make it harder to shoot the boss.
    * It says "SONIC GOT THROUGH ZONE" on every act. If we're to distinguish between acts and zones, then I feel this should say "ACT 1" instead of "ZONE".
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2021
  17. Overlord


    Now playable in Smash Bros Ultimate Moderator
    Long-term happiness
    Don't double post, please, especially with the gap barely being a few hours. Merged both your sets together.
  18. saxman


    Oldbie Tech Member
    I did so because I saw Hez had viewed the thread before. Not 100% sure if he saw my first post or not, but I figured that was a reasonable double-post situation. But I guess I'll just ping him or something.
  19. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    Umm... The other day I forgot to say elemental shields didn't reflect projectiles or ignore the associated elemental attacks, so a fireball removed my flame shield.

    (Also I mentioned Relic Retreat instead of Rustic Ruins, when the former is from Emerald Ties. :eng99:)
  20. Hez


    I should mention I do come visit this threat often! I try not to post too much, but want to insure I see everything and take everything into consideration. It's a slow process, but I assure you things are moving in the background. Keep the suggestions and bug posts coming!

    EDIT: Sax -- I have a ton of protobosses I may repurpose for Fang and other characters down the road. I'm still trying to figure out a way to release prototypes of the game. Long story short; It's been 10+ years and I once was an edgelord. I'm trying to come up with a blanketed statement to cover my butt when folks find inevitable offensive statements in them. These were obviously internal builds only meant for certain people who got the humor at the time, and aren't easy to find but can be. So in short, as soon as I can figure out how to say "Yo, I said offensive words because I thought I was funny and was never meant to reach the general public but now I want to release this stuff and don't have the sources to edit anymore please forgive me if you want to see them", I'll release them. It's nothing ultra terrible, just the typical vulgar slurs.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021