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Sonic CD's Mysterious Cut R2 Level Discussion - Post Origins Edition

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, Jul 12, 2022.

  1. Palas

    Palas

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    "If R2 was cut so early that few to no assets were ever produced then why does it have two names" is... a pretty good question actually. Especially considering they're both alliterative, but no other early name we know of was.
     
  2. Jaxer

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    I'd cut the mentions of R4 from both questions. We all should have learned by now that it's bad practice to ask such leading questions about things that happened decades ago, as none of us presumably want more "Dust Hill was probably the desert level" or "Elements from Cyber City could've been recycled in Metropolis Act 3" situations.

    If I were to ask Ohshima about this, I'd first ask "Which Round does the cut ending clip represent?" and "Were any assets meant for R2 recycled into other Rounds?", after which I would finally ask "Why was Tidal Tempest not represented in the end credits?".
     
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  3. MasterDreamcaster

    MasterDreamcaster

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    But if we look at level concept art for Mega Drive trilogy and Mega-CD game, it's quite different. What is known so far are two images: R2-related and something like Stardust Speedway. Compare it with anything from Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles development. Sonic CD stage concepts look like rough sketches. It makes me think that what we saw in developer's diary is just a glimpse of one of Hoshino's sketchbooks. For a game that has 4 versions of any Round, there has to be detailed artwork with fleshed out ideas.
    SEGA rarely releases art for Sonic CD in books, video game compilations... Well, first document showing all 8 Rounds appeared in Sonic Origins. New version of Generations will hopefully have an expanded museum.

    Ah yes, that's what I asked. There was no response. So I didn't want to repeat that question. If Ohshima does not answer a particular question, there must be a reason for that.
    Anyway, it's curious how things seem to be obvious for us (there was no doubt that Antlion clip showed R2), then game's director provides a completely different opinion.
    If we ignore it, and still look at that segment as Ridicule Root, then we have two parallel stories:

    Sonic Team – "Okay guys, let's drop R2."
    Toei – "Okay guys, let's drop Tidal Tempest."

    If we listen to what Ohshima says and the clip really has nothing to do with R2... And he does not explain what it is... Well, it kind of looks like a place in Tidal Tempest, or maybe it's just me.
    Let's not forget that Antlion scene also appeared in pencil test. So it was made early on, along with Sonic's running animation and a scene from the intro. We know that Antlion is a badnik from R2, thanks to sprites shared by Christian Whitehead. So at least the part with Sonic's interaction with that robot belongs to the original second level. Surroundings, though... they could be an "animation test" by guys from Toei. They could have taken an early badnik design and figured out in what area it could appear.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2024
  4. HEDGESMFG

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    We also know that the animation segments can reflect earlier design concepts for stages, as the Palmtree Panic bit was actually modeled after the "Salad Plains" designs very early in development...

    So it's certainly possible that the "R2" animation big could actually be an early Tidal Tempest concept we've never seen before, and we know the Antlion enemy was considered to be used in R8 as well, so they may have at one point had trouble deciding where to put it.

    But, I'm also not fully convinced it's not R2 either. I agree that more concepts almost certainly exist for this stage, even if it ends up just being a single piece of more fleshed out artwork, but they are keeping those assets private for whatever reasons. That R2 spot on the world map had surprisingly specific gimmicks and rough ideas conceptualized.
     
  5. Forte

    Forte

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    Dubious Depths makes sense as an early name for Tidal Tempest…

    But… during the game development, Ohshima and the team could have thrown around a lot of ideas. It's just speculation on my part, but the names could’ve been thrown around for both R2 and R4, depending also on the team member.

    Either way, this is just speculation for now. For the time being, we have a vague confirmation that RR = DD at least in naming terms.
     
  6. Jaxer

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    The mere appearance of the Antlion Badnik in that animated scene makes me think that it cannot be R4; Real life antlions live underground in dry and sandy habitats, as all of us should know.

    I get that the purpose and Zone assignment of Badniks is not always related to which animal they're based on, but I highly doubt that the enemy was planned to appear in Tidal Tempest.
     
  7. MasterSegaCDPlayer

    MasterSegaCDPlayer

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  8. HEDGESMFG

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    So that confirms it's not R4, or at least not 'directly' based on R4.

    https://x.com/NaotoOhshima/status/1762504713822703964

    Also, Ohshima's second tweet there is notable, and reiterates what I've been saying, that R2 was cut very early, having only been in a "proposal document", he denies there even being maps/concept art, or at least says "he" didn't make them. Obviously, we have the one rough sketch, enemy sprites, and music...

    ...but then what concepts were used by Toei to animated the "not R2, also not R4" segment!?
     
  9. MasterSegaCDPlayer

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    To be honest, this whole theory of "R2 is early Tidal Tempest" is so shit, i can't believe people think about that TO THIS DAY, this is a "Relic Ruins" moment or even "Dust Hill is the desert level", it is clear as day that R2 and R4 were both unique. The word "depths" can be abstract, yes it can mean the depths of the water but it can also mean depths of a DUNGEON.

    For the ending animation, it is clear that this thing is R2, the Antlion enemy should be enough but i guess it's not, this area has been overgrown by nature and bricks are crackled, this isn't something you find in Tidal Tempest Present. R2 seems to be overgrown by nature due to the huge forest and roots present, this fits totally the ending animation.
     
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  10. Blue Spikeball

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    I do agree that plenty about that FMV suggests Ridicule Root. From the anlion badnik to the ruins look to the roots everywhere to the fact it depicts an underground area. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it just because Ohshima doesn't think it's R2, considering his wording implies he's not sure.
     
  11. HEDGESMFG

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    The only reason 'any' of us here are even entertaining the idea of it somehow NOT being R2 is because the director of the game himself claimed it wasn't, and our extensive research of Sonic 2 has taught us that very often we have 'massive' gaps in our knowledge and speculation that just can't be explained until better info comes along. That's what makes this all so hard, so we try to speculate to cover potential gaps. We were all very, very wrong about how early Sonic 2 was conceptualized until the 2017 presentation on it, and even then we've only learned a lot more on that game in the past 2 years. Sonic 3's music also had a much more complex history than 'any' of us knew until late 2019.

    To be clear, I don't think Sonic CD had anywhere near as rocky of a development. I personally think there was some kind of misunderstanding and I agree with the sentiment that the FMV must be tied to R2, even if somehow it was only created by Toei as a loose idea of what the level could be. But I entertain the other possibilities just to make sure we didn't miss something, and we've also seen Sonic Team reuse concepts from cut levels before in other games.

    However, your recent posts makes it clear that the animation isn't R4/Tidal Tempest, so that means by sheer process of elimination it has to be R2 related, even if it's only very loosely connected to whatever was planned for the real level. I'm not saying Ohshima is lying to use, rather, I suspect we're misinterpreting the statement in some way, or he himself may be somewhat disconnected from how Toei created all of its assets. In fact, I think a lot of confusion on developer statements related to R2 come down to the fact that 'so little of it was made', that they will struggle to clearly discuss it, even if they do remember details about it.

    It's all such a mess, becuase soemtime we're sure that nothing from a cut stage survives, only to suddenly discover a ton of assets survive from it: Cyber City being one of the prime cases.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2024
  12. BlackHole

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    Considering Ohshima wasn't a one-man band on the game, and we do have a single concept art, "I didn't make any maps or concept art" should be taken literally: he didn't make it. Someone else on the team may have: it should be asked who else was designing the levels.
     
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  13. MasterSegaCDPlayer

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    In my eyes, looking at things that just doesn't make sense or deviates from what we know of the stage is just a waste of time, the best is to look at what we know of the stage (in this case, R2 IS A ABANDONED OVERGROWN DUNGEON LEVEL featuring outside and underground parts etc), if we start making theories that R2 is an early TTZ for example, it's just a waste of time (i could make a resume as to what we know for R2 right now but i am tired, it's 2AM rn, so i will do this later on), we need to look into things that are accurate and depicts very well what we have of this level. (Seriously the theory about "Dubious Depths being an early name for TTZ is just awful in my eyes)

    I don't think Ohshima should be the one in which we need to ask about R2 personally, rather, it should be the level designer(s) who worked on how the level should look like.

    I agree that some information can be misinterpretated, it happens to everyone on Earth to misunderstand things, but with how less rocky Sonic CD's development was compare to Sonic 2 and how things were kind of already decided on (even though there was changes in the development i think) i think the idea on how R2 should have look like would be kind of straighforward in my eyes.

    I do not want to force a view, i am just a simple man who loves and is passionate about Sonic CD, i am doing an R2 mod, i just share and want to show what this level was most likely about.

    Ok, this was shared just after i made this post above so here, the FMV IS R2:

    https://x.com/Kujo_NG/status/1826049094118420507
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2024
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  14. BlackHole

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    So, as mentioned, due to animation lead time there's got to be some early concept art used as a basis for the animation. I know of the rainbow falls, but now there's a possibility of another.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. HEDGESMFG

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    Well that should resolve the debate then, thank god.

    Trust me, I never really wanted to entertain the whole idea of this not being R2, it was just hard to ignore Ohshima's own words completely, so I'm happy to throw that idea back in the trash.

    I also agree with this. There is likely some art we haven't seen yet. I just doubt there are maps or much of any working level. Maybe a limited amount of digitized tiles we've never seen.
     
  16. MasterSegaCDPlayer

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    Seeing all of this false things like "This is not R2" or "This is TTZ" was so ridicule tbh, i'm glad that Mazin confirmed this EVEN THOUGH IT WAS OBVIOUS.

    At least this thing is over and we have confirmation, i hope i don't see anything like "This is not R2" ever again (for the FMV).

    For the last bit, i suspect there are some graphics we never saw but this is pure speculation.
     
  17. Jaxer

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    Are we sure that he came to this conclusion organically, or was it colored by fans going on and on about how the clip must depict R2?

    Reminder that Mazin was the one who initially claimed that it's not R2, so why is he claiming the complete opposite now? There's no way that his DMs haven't been flooded with messages that say "You must be misremembering, it has to be R2 because of yadda yadda yadda" ever since he first denied a connection between the two, so maybe he started to doubt himself and therefore accepted the more popular belief, even if it contradicts his own knowledge and/or memories.
     
  18. MasterSegaCDPlayer

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    It was Ohshima that claimed that it wasn't R2.
     
  19. Jaxer

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    Was it? My bad, then. Disregard everything I just said, I clearly need sleep.

    And yeah, I've always believed that it was R2 myself.
     
  20. MasterSegaCDPlayer

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    It's almost 4AM and i don't know why am i still awake lmao