Sonic CD's Mysterious Cut R2 Level Discussion - Post Origins Edition

"If R2 was cut so early that few to no assets were ever produced then why does it have two names" is... a pretty good question actually. Especially considering they're both alliterative, but no other early name we know of was.

 

I'd cut the mentions of R4 from both questions. We all should have learned by now that it's bad practice to ask such leading questions about things that happened decades ago, as none of us presumably want more "Dust Hill was probably the desert level" or "Elements from Cyber City could've been recycled in Metropolis Act 3" situations.

If I were to ask Ohshima about this, I'd first ask "Which Round does the cut ending clip represent?" and "Were any assets meant for R2 recycled into other Rounds?", after which I would finally ask "Why was Tidal Tempest not represented in the end credits?".

 

But if we look at level concept art for Mega Drive trilogy and Mega-CD game, it's quite different. What is known so far are two images: R2-related and something like Stardust Speedway. Compare it with anything from Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles development. Sonic CD stage concepts look like rough sketches. It makes me think that what we saw in developer's diary is just a glimpse of one of Hoshino's sketchbooks. For a game that has 4 versions of any Round, there has to be detailed artwork with fleshed out ideas.
SEGA rarely releases art for Sonic CD in books, video game compilations... Well, first document showing all 8 Rounds appeared in Sonic Origins. New version of Generations will hopefully have an expanded museum.

Ah yes, that's what I asked. There was no response. So I didn't want to repeat that question. If Ohshima does not answer a particular question, there must be a reason for that.
Anyway, it's curious how things seem to be obvious for us (there was no doubt that Antlion clip showed R2), then game's director provides a completely different opinion.
If we ignore it, and still look at that segment as Ridicule Root, then we have two parallel stories:

Sonic Team – "Okay guys, let's drop R2."
Toei – "Okay guys, let's drop Tidal Tempest."

If we listen to what Ohshima says and the clip really has nothing to do with R2... And he does not explain what it is... Well, it kind of looks like a place in Tidal Tempest, or maybe it's just me.
Let's not forget that Antlion scene also appeared in pencil test. So it was made early on, along with Sonic's running animation and a scene from the intro. We know that Antlion is a badnik from R2, thanks to sprites shared by Christian Whitehead. So at least the part with Sonic's interaction with that robot belongs to the original second level. Surroundings, though... they could be an "animation test" by guys from Toei. They could have taken an early badnik design and figured out in what area it could appear.

 

Dubious Depths makes sense as an early name for Tidal Tempest…

But… during the game development, Ohshima and the team could have thrown around a lot of ideas. It's just speculation on my part, but the names could’ve been thrown around for both R2 and R4, depending also on the team member.

Either way, this is just speculation for now. For the time being, we have a vague confirmation that RR = DD at least in naming terms.

 

The mere appearance of the Antlion Badnik in that animated scene makes me think that it cannot be R4; Real life antlions live underground in dry and sandy habitats, as all of us should know.

I get that the purpose and Zone assignment of Badniks is not always related to which animal they're based on, but I highly doubt that the enemy was planned to appear in Tidal Tempest.

 

Nice to see the forum active. Anyways, found that when i was looking Ohshima's response as to why there isn't TTZ in the ending animation.

https://x.com/Kujo_NG/status/1761953722005889065

https://x.com/NaotoOhshima/status/1762291283618668646

Seems like Tidal Tempest just didn't have a concept art/concept arts ready in time.

 

To be honest, this whole theory of "R2 is early Tidal Tempest" is so shit, i can't believe people think about that TO THIS DAY, this is a "Relic Ruins" moment or even "Dust Hill is the desert level", it is clear as day that R2 and R4 were both unique. The word "depths" can be abstract, yes it can mean the depths of the water but it can also mean depths of a DUNGEON.

For the ending animation, it is clear that this thing is R2, the Antlion enemy should be enough but i guess it's not, this area has been overgrown by nature and bricks are crackled, this isn't something you find in Tidal Tempest Present. R2 seems to be overgrown by nature due to the huge forest and roots present, this fits totally the ending animation.

 

I do agree that plenty about that FMV suggests Ridicule Root. From the anlion badnik to the ruins look to the roots everywhere to the fact it depicts an underground area. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it just because Ohshima doesn't think it's R2, considering his wording implies he's not sure.

 

Considering Ohshima wasn't a one-man band on the game, and we do have a single concept art, "I didn't make any maps or concept art" should be taken literally: he didn't make it. Someone else on the team may have: it should be asked who else was designing the levels.

 

In my eyes, looking at things that just doesn't make sense or deviates from what we know of the stage is just a waste of time, the best is to look at what we know of the stage (in this case, R2 IS A ABANDONED OVERGROWN DUNGEON LEVEL featuring outside and underground parts etc), if we start making theories that R2 is an early TTZ for example, it's just a waste of time (i could make a resume as to what we know for R2 right now but i am tired, it's 2AM rn, so i will do this later on), we need to look into things that are accurate and depicts very well what we have of this level. (Seriously the theory about "Dubious Depths being an early name for TTZ is just awful in my eyes)

I don't think Ohshima should be the one in which we need to ask about R2 personally, rather, it should be the level designer(s) who worked on how the level should look like.

I agree that some information can be misinterpretated, it happens to everyone on Earth to misunderstand things, but with how less rocky Sonic CD's development was compare to Sonic 2 and how things were kind of already decided on (even though there was changes in the development i think) i think the idea on how R2 should have look like would be kind of straighforward in my eyes.

I do not want to force a view, i am just a simple man who loves and is passionate about Sonic CD, i am doing an R2 mod, i just share and want to show what this level was most likely about.

Ok, this was shared just after i made this post above so here, the FMV IS R2:

https://x.com/Kujo_NG/status/1826049094118420507

 

So, as mentioned, due to animation lead time there's got to be some early concept art used as a basis for the animation. I know of the rainbow falls, but now there's a possibility of another.

 

Seeing all of this false things like "This is not R2" or "This is TTZ" was so ridicule tbh, i'm glad that Mazin confirmed this EVEN THOUGH IT WAS OBVIOUS.

At least this thing is over and we have confirmation, i hope i don't see anything like "This is not R2" ever again (for the FMV).

For the last bit, i suspect there are some graphics we never saw but this is pure speculation.

 

Are we sure that he came to this conclusion organically, or was it colored by fans going on and on about how the clip must depict R2?

Reminder that Mazin was the one who initially claimed that it's not R2, so why is he claiming the complete opposite now? There's no way that his DMs haven't been flooded with messages that say "You must be misremembering, it has to be R2 because of yadda yadda yadda" ever since he first denied a connection between the two, so maybe he started to doubt himself and therefore accepted the more popular belief, even if it contradicts his own knowledge and/or memories.

 

It was Ohshima that claimed that it wasn't R2.

 

Was it? My bad, then. Disregard everything I just said, I clearly need sleep.

And yeah, I've always believed that it was R2 myself.

 

It's almost 4AM and i don't know why am i still awake lmao