Sonic CD's Mysterious Cut R2 Level Discussion - Post Origins Edition

Each stage MMD file generally fills up the Mega CD's Word RAM quite a bit, so, unfortunately, at least not without major changes, that won't be possible.

 

I was thinking it'd preload if you hit a time warp sign. Ah well.

 

Yeah, it's the continuation of the one I posted months back. There's another video in between that shows the timezones in depth. I have some reservations about the aesthetics in sound and art alike, for example it's taking a bit too much from Angelfox (he who shall not be given further attention, I'm aware) in both departments, and the art still kinda has the issues I mentioned from the initial video. The past underground BG looks more fitting for, say, Puggsy than it ever did Sonic. I've yet to hear a good what-if Good Future track for R2 because everyone is absolutely convinced that everything from Sonic Remix is related to it (and I'm almost sorry I ever brought even the Techno Power Mix thing up, for starters I never even said it was a bad future remix...), so that kind of bums me out along with the garish art direction for it.

But even for all my personal taste gripes, I do really like what they've done for the Present taken as a whole, and most importantly, I absolutely appreciate this guy for just getting the job done already. I understand what it's like to start a project, and it just kinda falls by the wayside. I imagine most of us have. Most of us also have full time jobs and all that good stuff. But when it came to R2 (or perhaps a Sonic CD round in general), I feel like people bit off more than they could chew. The above posted mod had to be completed in less than 2 years, and maybe even under one. It means either this guy was ultra determined even in spite of other obligations (and I get that, personally), or it just wasn't really all that hard and interest in doing it waned for many (which is also understandable). Or even a third option! Maybe people got caught up in their own perfectionism that no self-created asset looked good enough, and it just spiraled until they gave up. Who knows?

But this isn't a thread on intrinsic/extrinsic motivators when it comes to fan games/mods. I'm happy that this finally exists in some form. He deserves a lot of credit! Hopefully it's further moddable or maybe someone offers up a "second opinion", so to speak. That GF BG in the dungeon is blinding.

Semi-related, I'd like to see what Sonic CDX has in store for R2 as well. I can't imagine it'll be borrowing from other fan interpretations, and I would hope the music score is a lot more original (while still being based on DA Garden, of course).

 

Ay, thanks for checking out the mod, glad to see you liked it, Extra Badnik says thank you for the kind words. I was the one who slotted DD in between R1 and 3, along with supplying one of the soundtracks, I also have a set of US tracks in the works as-well, so if we come back next year my tracks should be even better and have a US set to go with them. :D

Yeah, that makes sense since Alexy joined early on and gave ideas, while I do prefer some of the older graphics Extra did based off concepts the two of us had come up with, I'm not the director he is.

I've never understood this line of thought until I saw a screenshot of Puggsy, and now I can kind of see it. However, the resemblance is more of an accident/coincidence than intentional since Extra had no idea what Puggsy was until it was brought up, and the same goes for me, I've never heard of this game until now.

Spoiler: Comparison

Sonic Stream is a remix of Little Planet if I recall correctly, and there are references to the original track with the song, along with its triumphant vibe, the speculation of it being a remix of the G'' mix is not unnecessarily called for, and TPM does feature B'' mix melodies, so it's not entirely out of the question that certain B'' mix elements of Little Planet were snuck in by Ogata-san, if you haven't heard it yet I'd recommend listening to my version of the G'' mix, as my version tries to combine Little Planet and Sonic Stream together and you might like that.

 

I mean you have a point -- we DID just get a ruins stage full of fans and air currents

 

The proto mural in Sonic 3's Hidden Palace depicted a dragon.



We also have this image of Doomsday Zone, with Super Sonic fighting a dragon in the air.

 

Well, I wrote about restoring a stage from concept art. After playing Superstars, I was glad to see many ideas from the Mega Drive / Genesis Trilogy are back. They are mentioned in another topic.

Trip's Super Form is a dragon. A glowing dragon. This really reminds me of concept art for Sonic 3. Speaking of it...

Sky Temple with its name and design resembles that "Temple in the sky" concept art.

But also, look at those roots. Kind of matches the name Ridicule Root.

 

Cool, but what does this have to do with Dubious Depths?

 

Well, Ridicule Root is an early name of R2. And some parts of Sky Temple resemble Kazuyuki Hoshino's drawing (but without rainbow waterfalls). My point is: if the developers check artwork from previous games and make new levels based on it, there is a chance we will see a version of Dubious Depths.
Well, maybe we already have it but don't know it yet.
Because some levels look like they were inspired by concept art made for Sonic 1, CD 2, 3 & Knuckles.
Golden Capital is a mix of unused ideas for levels in Sonic 1. Also, some places there are like Madness Mountain from Sonic 2.
Developers probably checked some stuff we know and don't know about, and decided to remake stages:
"Temple in the sky" / Ridicule Root / Dubious Depths – Sky Temple;
Unused Art for Sonic 1 / Madness Mountain – Golden Capital;
There are possibly some unseen designs of what eventually became Hydro City and Carnival Night – and they thought: "Let's give it another try", and reimagined it as Lagoon City and Pinball Carnival.

 

Why is there so much hype around Dubious Depths

 

Because staring at the R1-R3-R4-R5-etc cadence back in the '90s and noticing that missing number naturally had to fill a child's mind with wonder. It's like seeing that Sonic 3 level select for the first time... what THE HECK are those levels, and why can't I play them?!?

To me, it's a no-brainer. Or am I missing an underlying point in your question?

 

After Ohshima wrote that he didn't think it was Zone 2 in ending animation of Sonic CD, I thought: what could it be then?

The only place left is Tidal Tempest. But there is no water. Like in early Labyrinth Zone.

So I made a theory that it's Tidal Tempest. The level is also a counterpart of Labyrinth in Sonic CD. It even has a background in its Past version that is close to the one in proto LZ, while its Present looks like final LZ and Good Future somewhat resembles the place in animation.
Why there is a badnik that did not actually appear in Tidal Tempest?
Well, the same reason those robots from Palmtree Panic are in Collision Chaos here:

Because early in development, things are not in the same places where they are in the final version.

 

Evolution of R2 boss:

Antlion:

I collect all R2-related material.
Here is the post.

 

Eggman from 06

 

I cant remember where i read this, but this is ultimately the genesis of chaos. The japanese manual for sonic 3 talks about an egg that would hatch a dragon that would eat the world that knuckles clan watched over.

 

In a prototype from May 1993, Palmtree Panic boss resembles the concept art version.


However, developers changed the boss after some time.
I wonder if those Eggman R2 sprites are actually updated variants, while there was a version based on concept art?

Because R2 went through a kind of update (its name). It's also the only level with corrections made to it in pencil (on the map).

Looks like they were not sure about the level in 1992. Ideas were in contrast with one another. That would explain why Masato Nishimura does not remember / recognize rainbow coloured waterfall drawing and Naoto Ohshima does not think it's Zone 2 in ending of the game.
Two acts could have been totally different. Act 1 is a place deep in the woods (judging by trees; also, the name "Ridicule Root"). Music by Masafumi Ogata fits this act.
The same cannot be said for Act 2, which is a dungeon ("Dubious Depths"). The composition has a jungle / forest feel. It doesn't sound like it was written for an underground level.

Sonic explores the forest and then finds out what's under that forest. Like in Sonic 3 (Angel Island, Act 2 / Hydro City, Act 1).
The difference is that in Sonic CD it could have been one Round, not two separate Zones.
The part of R2 on the surface has some strange constructions. It seems they were developed further into an aqueduct / bridge.
The underground part possibly was depicted in another artwork, which served as a basis for animated ending sequence.

All evidence we have of Round 2's existence dates back to 1992. The stage is present in design document from spring of that year. And it's still there in December (well, at least in level select).
At some point, developers realized there won't be enough space for 8 Rounds, with 4 music themes for each. So they decided to make hardware handle "Past" mixes. And to have 7 Rounds in the game.
It's a mystery why specifically second stage was not used. Many reasons were given over the years: designer of level R2 didn't do a very good job, so the level did not meet quality standards; there was not enough room for Sonic to run around... But these reasons have the following implication: Ridicule Root / Dubious Depths actually appeared in a version (or even several versions) of Sonic CD.
Because decisions described above can be made after playing and testing a level.
Why R2 is such a big deal? Because it's not just an error in level numbering, when R1 skips to R3. It is the last lost level from Mega Drive / Genesis era (Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3 & Knuckles).
There were some unused concepts for Sonic 1, but now we see them in form of Golden Capital. And I can't recall if the first game had any slots for deleted levels.
Sonic 2 is a record breaker in terms of cut zones. But we have mockups, concept art, many prototypes. It allows us to know what those stages actually were supposed to be. The most famous zone (Hidden Palace) was even restored.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles has no deleted stages. Well, if we count the dragon boss picture as a stage – it's also remade (in Superstars).


So, what is left? Only Dubious Depths.
Why everything has to be so mysterious about it?
Not a single detailed artwork or mockup ever surfaced. I don't remember seeing any photo of it's composer. There is no success in contacting him.
I just hope that one day Sonic CD will be remastered and include all ideas that never made it in previous versions of the game: both DD's (Dubious Depths, Desert Dazzle), CD-audio "Past" tracks, instant time travel and so on...