don't click here

Sonic CD's Mysterious Cut R2 Level Discussion - Post Origins Edition

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, Jul 12, 2022.

  1. Vertekins


    Wants to know everything about Sonic Member
    Midlands, England, UK, over there in Europe.
    Translating whatever Sonic info I get my hands on.
    I guess I should elaborate on my reasoning for why I feel Dubious Depths may have had different BG's between acts.

    Metallic Madness at least has BG changes between its acts. It's most obvious in it's good future iterations;

    In act 1, it looks like a cross between a factory and a high tech greenhouse.

    But in act 2, it changes completely to an outdoor setting. Heck, act 3 also has BG changes, looks like you're closer to those purple buildings and octagonal.....things.

    I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility for Dubious Depths' BG and thus settings to change from a forested ruins area to a subterranean area going by this.
  2. Andrew75


    Technical Artist Member
    Project AXSX(Sonic Xtreme) + Misc Projects
    I can’t imagine R2 transitioning to R4 with R3 being in the way unless the levels were shuffled around at some point and R3 swapping with R2… rip.. but yeah don’t think that’s possible looking at the concept little planet map. For me at least, I got my money on R4 having both above and under ground sections. But the above ground areas being scrapped.
  3. GoldeMan


    That's a really nice point, I completely forgot that Metallic Madness does that, it is such a nice detail and that last background is gorgeous. I guess more my thought was that the implication was that it was a larger shift then just the background, but I can now see at least the background shifting. I guess by shifting was generally thinking like how Sonic 3K and Mania does it where the tiles sometimes completely overhaul, think like Mushroom Hill or something more substantial than a background. But this makes a lot more sense when applied the way you pointed out.
  4. MasterDreamcaster


    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    Speaking of Scrap Brain – that zone has different backgrounds in acts 1 and 2.
    Perhaps the same thing was with R2 – first act's background reflected "Ridicule Root" aspect of level's concept (forest / jungle), while second act's background – more like "Dubious Depths" (underground / dungeon).
    Well, I wanted to know the level's name in order to have some kind of a clue to its location on Little Planet and a general idea of what it supposed to look like. That's why I asked mister Ohshima in the first place.
    Also I've been trying to learn more information from him and other developers, but there is nothing new so far...
    What we have now is our guesses. Some of them are quite similar.

    Like this, for example. I was writing that Scrap Brain related stuff, then saw this post by Vertekins.
  5. I'm not entirely convinced that it would, as Dubious Depths was meant to be the second round, and if I recall correctly Palmtree Panic (R1) and Collison Chaos (R3) don't use the different background per zone method like how Tidal Tempest, Stardust Speedway, and Metallic Madness do. I think it's more likely that the backgrounds would stay the same or have very subtle changes.
  6. Decided to double-check, and I did notice that the backgrounds of the time periods did change (mostly in the good and bad futures, the present and past were barely touched), though not drastically.
    Some of the tiles were put in different places though the same graphics are used.
    Palmtree Panic:
    Zone 1: Pres, Past, GF, BF.
    Zone 2: Pres, Past, GF, BF.
    Zone 3: Pres, Past, GF, BF.

    Collision Chaos:
    Zone 1: Pres, Past, GF, BF.
    Zone 2: Pres, Past, GF, BF.
    Zone 3: Pres, Past, GF, BF.

    So it's possible that Dubious Depths may have had subtle changes between its future backgrounds if they were digitized or drawn.
  7. RDNexus


    Potential off-topic, but I'll try ask here anyways...

    Has anyone ever managed to identify the zones in the D.A. Garden sprites of Little Planet?
  8. I've done my hand at it. Did this in January and revised it in February. I may go back and re-revise it at some point in the future.
    Little Planet Locations (Johneys thoughts) v2.png
  9. MasterDreamcaster


    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    Yeah, that's when we learned R2's name. It's been 5 months...
    I was hoping they would include more concept art / pages from design documents in Sonic Origins Plus, so we could look at other ideas and early names of stages in Sonic CD.

    Thanks to you and all people who contribute to research of this topic. I think Dubious Depths is the most mysterious level.

    Looking at that map, I see you placed DD in a jungle / forest area. It probably had a lot of lianas and roots, that's why the developers wanted to call it Ridicule Root at some point. Well, it's a suggestion.

    What is known for sure is that R2's music theme was used in Digital Audio Garden mode. It would fit well in a tropical level. And it's a cousin of Pacific State, so to say...

    It seems to me that other ways to get more information is to interview Masafumi Ogata and discover a prototype of Sonic CD.

    Maybe that will happen in Good Future.
  10. Yeah, I've been following the R2 mystery since I heard about it in 2014, it was really nice to see that we got a name for it after 30 years. I put Dubious Depths in the forest area as it makes sense going on how little we know about it (Its initial name and the robin in the present track). I made a post in the thread a while back saying that Masafumi Ogata works for PURE SOUND Inc., this company has a website and you can send emails via the site itself, one of us could email PURE SOUND and ask if a Masafumi Ogata still works there and would be willing to do an interview of some sort. Though if that goes nowhere going to ask Naofumi Hataya and seeing if he remembers what work his colleague did from March to December of 1992 would be the next best option.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2023
  11. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    My interpretation is close to yours, with some differences:

    I believe the location in the center is CC, as CC has plants and mountains in the background, cacti in some eras, and is described as "a bunch of pinballs floating atop the water" by the Japanese manual. The aforementioned location is an artificial structure the middle of the sea, and is next to some mountains and a landmass with cacti and plants.

    Which leaves the green leaning tower to be Metallic Madness. Although it's possible that that's WW, and the location you labeled as WW is MM.

    TT is most likely supposed to be underneath the platforms at the end of the river leading to the volcanoes, judging from the Little Planet concept art, and the fact TT depicts volcanoes in the distant background.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2023
  12. RDNexus


    Excuse me the off-topic...
    I just found out one of the original game's betas had a level named Mercury Mine.
    Was it another scrapped level or an early name for a level like Quartz Quadrant?
  13. Palas


    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
    This beta is a hoax. It was made by Nemesis, who by the way still posts on Retro.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  14. Sneekie


    Sneasy Member
    If you're talking about "Beta 409", that's a hoax.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  15. MasterDreamcaster


    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    I sent a message to PURE Sound, asking if Masafumi Ogata works there and if he does – is there a chance to have an interview of sorts?
    They replied that the company hired him temporarily 20 years ago, but at present he does not work for PURE Sound. And they don't know where he is now.
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  16. Well, there goes one of the only leads on Ogata's whereabouts. Looks like the only one we can ask is Naofumi Hataya, and I don't know if he'll be able to say much since he still works at Sega and it's been 30 years removed, though it's worth a try since he's said things about the music production of Sega games before (like revealing that Masato Nakamura was there when his music was being digitized for Sonic 1 & 2, and he had overseen it as well).
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  17. saxman


    Oldbie Tech Member
    There's a very good chance that he's not allowed to talk about it whether he's still with Sega or not. So we're left with what he is and is not willing to reveal.
  18. Antheraea


    Bug Hunter Member
    my apologies for necro'ing this, but I came across this post and didn't remember us mentioning it? the "antlion"/"ruins" segment of the credits sequence was originally just a pencil test easter egg in the original release?

    That almost implies to me that it is a segment referring to a level that was planned but no longer exists...after all, while on tight time and budget constraints, you'd want to actually finish the bits that matter to the rest of the game, not a segment referencing something that isn't actually in it anymore.
    • Informative Informative x 4
    • List


    I believe based on cels and assets we've seen, the SEGA CD pencil tests and digital FMVs were completed after the fact, while the original cel animation was completed first.

    Though I can't recall if the final full version was first released in Sonic CD PC, or in Sonic Jam.

    Edit: Nope, looks like the R2 segment was first revealed in Sonic Jam, in June 97:

    However, it's unlikely that it wasn't already fully animated before this point, and the PC release points to the fact that it simply wasn't included because the level was never finished, so it was never originally meant to be fully seen in the final version.

    "Gems Collection" was the first version of the game to include the R2 clip, likely because it was already an extra in Mega Collection, so easier to port, then we just considered it a permanent staple after that.
  20. MasterDreamcaster


    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    Ohshima-san recently shared a photo of storyboards for Sonic CD opening. He also made storyboards for the ending. But entrusted the setting of scenes to Toei Animation.
    And he doesn't think this is Round 2.
    Well, I don't know exactly what he means by that. Here are theories:
    1. He means it's not Round 2 of the final game, because the secong stage there is Collision Chaos. But then again, I mentioned "deleted Round 2: Dubious Depths" in my question about that animation.
    2. It really is not R2. Just a random location that evolved from a sketch form to showcase a badnik. Because the developers were not sure in which zones they should place the robots (there is a picture with Antons in Collision Chaos and Antlion could have appeared in Metallic Madness). Also, in the Tumblr post the author does not call it R2 / Dubious Depths / Ridicule Root.
    3. It's an early version of Tidal Tempest, because this is the only level which was not included in ending sequence. Since this scene appears nearly in every version of Sonic CD (except the original SEGA CD version), it could represent Tidal Tempest.
    Why not? All other scenes match their counterparts in game. And TT could have been a different zone without water in very early prototypes. Like Labyrinth in Sonic 1. No water and totally different background.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2023