Sonic CD's Mysterious Cut R2 Level Discussion - Post Origins Edition

Another possibility for the Antlion badnik’s placement could be located at each transport tube entrance in Metallic Madness. And if so, than a fun gameplay mechanic would be for Sonic to have to pop them before entering the tube.

 

I find that very hard to believe, knowing how the music industry works, there's music that gets left out of EPs all of the time, for example, bands and/or composers will compose a certain amount of tracks then the producer and crew will choose the best songs, leaving the other songs on the cutting room floor, either having them be another release or being scrapped entirely. There's also the fact that Masafumi Ogata most likely would've had concept art for all of the rounds he was composing music for, the same goes for Naofumi Hataya. In addition, just because our earliest build is from December 4th, 1992 doesn't mean it was the earliest build, there could be other builds out there. R2 not being in v0.02 doesn't mean anything either, R3 - 8 aren't either, they were most likely scrubbed clean for Yuusei, or weren't implemented at the time.
You mention that all past stages are using present music in the 510 build, which is because the P'' mixes were sequenced and weren't implemented yet. There's also the fact this build's stage select has four slots at the end of it, which would fit a 2-1A, 2-1B, 2-1C, and 2-1D, which could mean only Zone 1 was ever put in-game before being scrapped. We also don't know what happened between the time after Yuusei and before the compiling of the 510 build, Dubious Depths could've been developed afterward and then scrapped in possibly late April to early May. Looking at the development of the other games, Masato Nakamura most likely composed music for the other scrapped Sonic 2 zones that haven't been released, so there's the chance Ogata had composed the time period mixes for Dubious Depths and the team wasn't able to add them due to storage space and time, as to what Mazin said. Though we really don't know, only Ogata-san and possibly Hataya-san would know.

 

To be fair, isn't that how they work in Tidal Tempest too?

 

Not entirely, they push Sonic around, not just blow him up into the air, which is what I was speculating.

 

Much more like how they act in something like Hydrocity or Oil Ocean and less so the "touch the fan and it'll blow you on a predetermined path" like how Tidal Tempest uses them. That's how I took it

 

Yeah, I took it as that too, but with more variation on how high it blows Sonic in the air, which would add some challenge to get the higher routes. On the topic of gimmicks, there's also something I don't think anyone's brought up yet, in version 0.02, there are multiple rotating platforms in the build, and two of them happen to behave in a way that's eerily similar to the ones seen on Dubious Depths's section of the Little Planet concept art.

 

Nice find! Also worth noting, and this does fuel the recycled gimmick theory, where a similar but different platform is used at one section in Tidal Tempest



But considering how different those TT version of the platforms look I can see the 0.02 version of them fitting into an abstract mine / nature thing that R2 was supposed to be.

Interestingly in Tidal Tempest this is the one place this gimmick shows up, it makes me wonder if it was an addition post R2's cut. It does appear in the 510 beta.

I also glanced at that same area in the other Variants of the map and it doesn't appear in any of them, Past replaces the blocks it opens entirely and on both Futures it seems to be replaced by a spring instead. Considering how little the other Variants of the levels changed with new additions when something deviated from the initial implemented design. A good example is look how Palmtree Panic's other time zones match closer with 0.02 Present level design then the final game's Present level design.

I was looking at the video further and I noticed that the final version of the platform thay they spawn has a second object spawn with it, then fall. Do we know what this was intended to be? Otherwise that last object functions indentically to the second one shown off, rotating clockwise.

I know there is that one piece of storyboard with Amy in R2 falling. I can't remember if we pinpointed what makes her fall? I can't translate it and there isn't a current translation I can see. Maybe she steps on a platform and it collapses introducing the mechanic to you? Considering how much effort went into the platforms at that point already I wouldn't be too surprised. But that's speculation.

 

The top segment just says that she falls into a pitfall and that her voice clip is not words, just screaming i.e "Aaaaah!" "Kyaaaa!" (I translated the whole thing over on my Tumblr.)

What I've wondered is the concept art of Little Planet that explicitly shows Dubious Depths seems to suggest that act 1 took place above ground and act 2 took place under the ground. So maybe Amy falling into a pitfall was intended to be a little cutscene of sorts between the acts to explain the transition to the underground? Another thought I've had is as Amy was intended to be kidnapped in Dubious Depths, maybe her falling into a pitfall is the perfect opportunity Metal Sonic has to kidnap her?

 

The pitfall thing is interesting. Perhaps that was a cut scene of sorts, kind of like Collision Chaos. That's a good point.

However, I think people read WAY too much into the Little Planet concept art. There's zero evidence of a above/below split between acts. All the art is supposed to show you is there are sections above ground, and those can lead to sections below ground. That's it. How else do they convey that concept other than how they did it? And you know what zone does that? Marble Zone. And it does both above and below in all three acts.

 

Speaking of the LP concept art, I find interesting how it seems to imply that Tidal Tempest was going to have above ground areas with platforming.

The final version is almost entirely underground, with only an extremely short section at the beginning of the first act above ground.

Guess that explains why they went through the trouble of drawing that background with the volcanoes seemingly for such a brief section. The level would originally would have had more and longer sections with it.

It also explains why the in-game Little Planet map seems to represent Tidal Tempest with a group of platforms that are nowhere to be seen in the level itself:

 

Those platforms look basically like the Marble Zone above-ground platforms:


Really, it seems to me that Dubious Depths and Tidal Tempest both were meant to borrow elements from Marble Zone, if I were to guess. i.e. Dubious Depths was Marble Zone + something (Jungle Zone from the portable Sonic 1?), and Tidal Tempest would become Marble Zone + Labyrinth Zone.

If this theory is true, it makes me wonder whether, if a playable Dubious Depths existed at all (I'm starting to doubt), we'd also see an earlier Tidal Tempest in the same build, featuring many more above-ground sections.

 

There's no evidence to say Dubious Depths wasn't playable whatsoever (though if earlier builds existed with DD on it, it'd probably be like beta Labyrinth in content, being the stage with no enemies or gimmicks), and with Tidal Tempest having an above-ground and water section, it seems it didn't get far as zone 1, as only the present has a surface background and it only appeared in Zone 1 before the drop, it could imply the above-ground sections were removed at some point early on when designing the zone layouts, which is a shame as the surface background looks quite nice.

 

...and thus it could have been the first zone with acts transition, before a similar idea was introduced in Sonic 3.
I mentioned it on page 30 (comparison between Angel Island, Act 2 –> Hydrocity, Act 1 and Dubious Depths, Zone 1 –> Dubious Depths, Zone 2).

 

Reminder that Scrap Brain had the first act transitions in the series

 

Not to go off on a tangent but I stand by that Tidal Tempest is one of of not the best looking classic sonic zone. Everything about it, especially that volcano background, is so top notch. And the present music track in both regions is perfect.

But to get back on track I wouldn't be surprised if earlier in development that was the intention but as the level design continued to evolve they decided to scrap it.

I think most of the remaining answers of Sonic CD's development either come from that post 0.02 pre 510 Era (Jan-May '93, pre delay) where the game is clearly in a haphazard panicked state or from the earlier pre 0.02 Era (May-Dec' 92) where most of R2' s development seemed to occur and other scrapped elements like the original special stage exists

True, it's good to keep in mind its the last normal level which is a contrast from R2.

I doubt the "act 1 is above this but act 2 is below" thing is was planned for the game. The idea that the one missing zone from the game happens to be the only zone to do that here especially when other zones like Quartz Quadrent could've also done the same thing. Add on top the fact theyd have to make assets for all of the time zones for each of the acts doubling the work of one zone and it seems a bit too far of a stretch. I can see it working like Quartz Quadrent where it takes you from above to below to above again, but not as an act split.

 

I've been thinking that, but then I think "well unless that's the exact reason why it's missing instead of any other zone". Sonic CD isn't especially homogeneous across acts in the same stage when compared with Sonic 1 or 2 (think Robotnik's huge statue in Stardust Speedway Act 2 or Metallic Madness' Act 2 pipes), but a definitive split seems far off. Like all the rest of Sonic CD, it's a lot more likely to have featured a lower underground section and an upper above ground section with a lot of room for air gameplay.

I maintain the (completely baseless) conjecture that other unsuspecting "children" of R2 live in Underground Zone and Sky High Zone from Sonic 2 (8-bit). Combine them and you have an unusual number of concepts that were supposed to go into Dubious Depths.

 

Based on the development timeline for Sonic 2 8-bit and Sonic CD I don't know about that. The earliest Sonic 2 8-bit build we have available is the auto-demo from late '91, which includes Underground Zone, while the earliest CD build is from late '92. Given the state of both builds it's likely they were both from early in development, which makes Sonic 2 8-bit borrowing from Sonic CD elements a little suspect, or at the least I find it hard to believe R2 was already far along enough in development in late '91 for the Sonic 2 8-bit devs to take influence from it. Also Sky High visually is pretty much Hill Top Zone, so I'm curious about what elements from it you think are connected to R2.

 

Nah, if that's how it is, it can't be the case. There's just a couple things I find... weird about these stages: the antlion concept for the boss in Unerground Zone, for starters. It seems very... unusual, and it works not unlike the one antlion badnik for R2 we see in the Sonic CD animation (coming from below, and you can basically only see its jaws). Not to mention it's a boss that has to hurt itself -- Sonic CD's bread and butter. Also the way neither zone name describes a proper place: Sonic 1 would probably have called them like Mine Zone and Mountain High or something, and their naming sense is unusual in basically any classic game. It's one hell of a reach, and I'm not really trying to state anything serious, but they feel like such direct counterparts to one another that it does make me wonder if they could in any way be related to a zone that was supposed to contrast very high canopies to, well dubious depths.

But again, that can't be because at no point the development timelines would match. So you're right. They're just weird.

 

I mean, if you really wanted to stretch it I guess you could somehow imagine that the CD devs took influence from Sonic 2 8-bit and crafted R2 based on Underground and Sky High. I don't see it being very likely but there is the existent music connection between the 2 games so it's slightly possible, albeit highly speculative.

 

Yeah, at best some happy hour conversation could have potentially led to some inspiration on someone's part, but that's extremely unlikely.