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Sonic CD's Mysterious Cut R2 Level Discussion - Post Origins Edition

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, Jul 12, 2022.

  1. muteKi

    muteKi

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    I think you could pass this off as what R2 was going to look like if you swapped out the labyrinth rocks for something more in line with the blocks-with-holes in botanic base, mainly to keep in line with the theme of repeated geometric patterns that the game has especially for its less mechanical stages
     
  2. MasterDreamcaster

    MasterDreamcaster

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    This is going to be a big post, so get ready.
    First of all, I would like to thank all the people who supported me for those two months on Sonic Retro. Special thanks to @PimpUigi, @Mastered Realm, @Rafa Stary.
    The fact that I'm new here does not mean that my research has only started – I've been researching video game development at least for a decade.
    Secondly, let's get back to Round 2.
    For now, there are only 2 images which list all 8 Rounds of CD Sonic. Little Planet map is seen quite often in this topic, so here is the second picture.
    retroarch 2023-03-22 10-04-10-327.png
    In my opinion, prototypes from December 1992 – May 1993 include those level cards with early names of stages: Salad Plain (1R); Ridicule Root (2R); Crazy Toy Box (6R) and so on.
    Those names are probably featured in the folder with early design document, which was found by Masato Nishimura in his home.
    While a newer design document contains final names, including Dubious Depths for R2. Well, I guess Naoto Ohshima checked that very document.
    Third – Tidal Tempest. That level is quite possibly the closest "relative" of Dubious Depths.
    Blue Spikeball pointed out that "the word "depths" is usually used for deep underwater areas". Both Rounds are the deepest locations on Little Planet – they take place underground; music for them has similar mood / atmosphere, and was composed by Masafumi Ogata; DD and TT are not present in ending animation of the original Mega-CD version.
    [​IMG]


    What else? Ah yes – we should give credit to people who research this topic. Alexy AngelFox made some good videos about deleted level and sent my screenshot to Nishimura-san. That's how we learned the second name of R2.
    Information does not appear out of thin air – you have to ask people who actually worked on those games.
    Please note: it's best to ask in the most polite way.
    For the first 3 months of this year, I managed to communicate with developers who were involved in creation of those wonderful titles:
    Sonic 1 - Naoto Ohshima;
    Sonic CD – Masato Nishimura
    Sonic 2 – Craig Stitt;
    Sonic 3 – Takashi Iizuka.
    So grateful to all of them. I hope there will be more discoveries. Oh, and that question about RD2 – anyone could have asked it.
    Screenshot_20230123_170411_com.twitter.android.jpg
    The screenshot was taken on the 23rd of January, 2023 at 5:04 PM.
    After 2 months, its cropped variant is seen all over the Internet. People are making mods for Sonic CD with their versions of Dubious Depths. I'm looking forward to see what it will look like. And, of course, still waiting for a new prototype to be found. Huge thanks to people at Hidden Palace for their discoveries.
    ---------------------------------------
    More theories:
    – Rafa Stary noticed similarities between Brand New World and Sonic Stream, which in turn is possibly related to music from Dubious Depths. Also, BNW is the only track from SONIC THE HEDGEHOG-REMIX album which appeared in 2011 version of Sonic CD (instrumental version was included).
    – Back to my theory about relation between Tempest and Depths (Alexy also expressed this opinion in one of the videos). Made music collections for both Rounds.

    – Played Sonic CD again. Noticed a long vine (root?) in Quartz Quadrant (Past). As far as I know, mister Nishimura made graphics for QQ. Maybe he reused some elements of Ridicule Root?
    Restored 2023-03-12 00-23-28-242.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2023
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  3. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

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    I don't know if he's even still willing to answer questions, but if he is, perhaps someone should ask Nishimura if any R2 tiles or background graphics were recycled anywhere else in the game, rather than just ask if a specific asset was?
     
  4. Jucei

    Jucei

    Member
    I've also noticed the vines/moss coming off of the roofs in QQZ (Past). Vines like it also appear in Labyrinth Zone.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    You can also see some in what little we can see of R2 in the credits animation.

    [​IMG]

    Now this is just baseless speculation, but I still wanted to mention it.
     
  5. synchronizer

    synchronizer

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    You also have those floor vines. Could just be for Quartz Quadrant past specifically, but no way to know now.
     
  6. Adamis

    Adamis

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    Lammy and "Fafnir"
    Could the plants in Stardust Speedway (Mania) have been inspired by Ridiculous Roots/Dubious Depths ?

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. synchronizer

    synchronizer

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    On the other hand, "the past" might just inspire a lot of overgrown vegetation themes. We shouldn't conclude anything unless we can find proof.
     
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  8. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

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    I feel that if Taxman had access to more R2 material, he would've tried to build a level based on it rather than Desert Dazzle, so I doubt he has seen much more than he's already confirmed/alluded too.

    I strongly doubt Mania has concepts we don't already know about. I think most of the remnants of R2 (if any) will only be in the original game.
     
  9. GoldeMan

    GoldeMan

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    I'm not sure I understand why there is so much emphasis on vines as a sole identifying trait of potential R2 leftovers when it's not that totally uncommon or out of place in other stages like Quartz Quadrant and especially Stardust Speedway, whose past map is literally wrapped in vines. I guess I'm having a hard time determining why a particular vine or other random element (sans the out of place Statue room) would be a particular R2 leftover outside of grasping at straws.
     
  10. MasterDreamcaster

    MasterDreamcaster

    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    Possible elements of R2 that appeared in other levels:

    Pits in R8 (Metallic Madness) – perhaps the developers wanted to place Antlion badniks there, because those are the only robots from Dubious Depths that also were supposed to appear in another stage.
    Ending animation features a badnik from each zone. So, I guess the Antlion was included in R2 in one of the prototypes, then they tried to place him in R8 in a different proto. Or there is a version of CD Sonic with that robot in both levels.

    Fans in R4 (Tidal Tempest). As I mentioned before, this Round is quite possibly the closest to Dubious Depths. It even starts at the surface, where volcanoes are seen, while at R2 concept art you can see mountains. Ah, that art... It has large waterfalls – and the biggest waterfalls are in TT. Boss vehicles of both R2 and R4 share the same idea – spinning wheel. In TT it's a spinning wheel of bubbles. Architecture of Tidal Tempest reminds of what is seen in closing credits version of Dubious Depths.

    And, considering the fact R4 does not appear in the animation while R2 is not in the game, could it be that developers returned that clip as a substitute for Tidal Tempest? Could this level have evolved from Dubious Depths?
     
  11. synchronizer

    synchronizer

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    Meaning Tidal Tempest could have evolved from a selection of elements from whatever R2 and R4 were originally at the map concept stage?
     
  12. GoldeMan

    GoldeMan

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    I understand that much at the least. For example, the Pits in Metallic Madness do make sense as some sort of left over as even in the various prototypes that specific gimmicks is consistently overhauled, as if they're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, with the Antlion badnik being the original round object in this metaphor.

    The fans in Tidal Tempest I'd also can agree they were probably idealized for R2 but were reused in some capacity, since the original concept art has a fan shown. Although fans are not that uncommon for water stages through the series (most come after CD in fairness but still). I could honestly see both stages using fans in some capacity. Interesting to note that in Sonic CD proper, the fans only really appear in the present time zones of Tidal Tempest, and even then rarely. In both the bad future, and the good future there is a similar object that does their function but it doesn't really look like a fan. Reminds me of how Palmtree Panic has those bouncy sticks that only appear in the other time zones and not the present.

    When it comes to level aesthetics I think it's a bit more of a stretch to connect R2 to any other level, until we really get concrete concept art. Besides, again, the angel statue room there isn't really any point in the game where the assets clash in such a way where it could point to a reuse of scrapped assets. Especially in the case of tidal tempest. Overlapping elements? Yeah, every stage falls victim to this. Palmtree Panic has waterfalls too, heck there are the same amount of waterfalls in Palmtree Panic that are in Tidal Tempest. The Final Fever boss also has a 'spinning wheel' of sorts. Some of the connections make sense in the vacuum but when you look at the whole game they just seem to be either common recurring tropes or coincidence.

    Edit: just for clarification by concrete concept art I mean something more than the vague "Good future" concept art and the Little Planet concept art.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
  13. I have a feeling the fans for Dubious Depths had a different function to the ones in Tidal Tempest, seeing how it's put down in the Little Planet art makes me think they would've been used to get to higher routes in the zones, with Sonic having to press a button to turn them on or having them be on at all times. They also could've been active for a certain amount of time as well, with Sonic either having to wait or press the button again.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2023
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Could be the fans pull Sonic down, and you need to find a switch in order to have them push him up instead.
     
  15. Oh yes, that's also a possibility, the fans could've done that too. If the intended use of the fans was to access alternate routes like in the art it would've been a very interesting gimmick in my opinion.
     
  16. No one's ever asked Mazin if some of the graphics in Wacky Workbench Zone 1's bad future had re-used assets, so there's the possibility that the past had original graphics done while some graphics for Dubious Depths was re-used for the bad future, as the poles in that area strongly resemble the poles seen in the 2R concept art.
    [​IMG] 2R.PNG
     
  17. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

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    Aside from the poles, the actual bricks/tiles in that area seem to match the same style as the rest of the stage, so if something was recycled, it could be only the Eggman statue and those poles at best. Maybe those floor tiles too.
     
  18. Astro

    Astro

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    Would it be worth/even possible following up with someone on the western side of things at SEGA where the Origins SCD concept art was sourced (namely the Little Planet map that references Dubious Depths)? Or is the assumption that SoJ was responsible for that/it came from the SCD staff's archives directly so it'd be a bit redundant?
     
  19. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

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    Origins was developed in Japan and the concept art was directly sourced from Masato Nishimura's (Mazin) Sonic CD binder.
     
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  20. On the topic of the binder, it was mentioned that Dubious Depths breaks the timeline, however, I played CD again recently and noticed that the final rounds also break this timeline. As Collision Chaos's good future is set in the morning for some reason. Tidal Tempest is after CC and this breaks the time of day cycle too, as TT present takes place at night. So I doubt having no time of day was a reason for the Round being scrapped. I still firmly believe Mazin's reasoning of being unable to fit the music data onto the CD-ROM and the tight development schedule being the direct cause for Dubious Depths being cut.
    20230404122155_1.jpg