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Sonic CD's Mysterious Cut R2 Level Discussion - Post Origins Edition

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, Jul 12, 2022.

  1. Battons

    Battons

    Shining Force Fan Member
    My best guess would be Instead of confirming everyone knows the new level order you just make sure they stay on their assigned tasks and not waste time working on assets for R2 when they were supposed to be working on R3. “Oh but actually R2 is R3 now so make sure when I say R2 you aren’t working on R2 but R3.”
     
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  2. I have a feeling the tight development schedule might also play into why it was scrapped. If the development schedule was tight as Mazin says (and there's no reason why it wouldn't be knowing how the development was of other Sonic games at the time) it's possible it would've been a waste of time renaming R3 into R2. I do think that we still don't have the full picture (we don't even know when the game started getting programmed), and using v0.02 is a good basis but it still doesn't give us what was going on before or after Yuusei Sega World, as the build could've been altered for the event so it could run on the MegaCD. I still think getting a build with Dubious Depths on it is possible, though the chances of getting a new development build might be getting lower as time has gone on. Though Sonic CD's 30th Anniversary is coming up soon, so we might get more info about the development (and possibly more info about and/or seeing assets belonging to Dubious Depths) when September rolls around.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
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  3. saxman

    saxman

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    I don't think it's necessary that zones have to be worked in order that they are to be seen in the game. So they could have gotten R1 and R3 going just because those are the ones they felt like working on or felt were higher priority.

    In the case of R2, it's possible they weren't 100% sure if they'd be able to get the level in or not, so they chose not to do a lot on that one, making it a "nice to have" later if they were able to work it in. I suspect that may very well have been the approach they took initially.

    Additionally, there's no real reason to care if it's R3 or R2. It could be R99. It would never be exposed to a vast majority of gamers anyway, and serves no value to the presentation. It's like Sonic 2's wonky level order... doesn't really matter at the end of the day. It's easier probably to keep R3 as that so there wouldn't be any confusion and communication problems with members of the team, not to mention many planning documents already having designated the round numbers.
     
  4. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    It's possible that at first they added the levels by the order they worked in, usually using the first available slot. Then they changed plans and started adding them to their corresponding slots by level order for better organization.
     
  5. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

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    All this would mean is that the concept of CD Sonic the Hedgehog 1 would've been retooled into Sonic CD much earlier, closer to the start of 1992 where the CD Sonic 1 port would be abandoned and they said "let's take those zone themes and make a newer, much bigger game out of them".

    There are far too many similarities with Sonic 1's tropes to ignore, and the stuff we know about R2 already ties it closely to Marble's trope, which only adds to the evidence of Sonic 1 being the early inspiration for Sonic CD's tropes.

    I think R2 was going to be Marble with spike pits and mechanical traps replacing lava. That's exactly what the above document shows. Being based on Sonic 1's levels would explain why, just like R1, R3, R4, and R8 are a perfect match for evolved Sonic 1 Zone tropes. Even R5, R6 and R7 all include either minor or major elements from Labyrinth and Star Light respectively.

    These zones don't need to be exact 1:1 replacements of the Sonic 1 tropes for this to be true. Evolving them to be something unique became the entire point, but in late 1991/early 1992, it was barely even defined what a successor to Sonic 1 should be like. The normal assumption of "all new levels for every game" had not even been fully established yet, so recycling tropes hardly seems like an implausible next step.

    It's also nice to get a much clearer picture of just how much closer to the timeline of development Sonic CD was to Sonic 1. March 1992 is only 9 months after Sonic 1's release. It really does put Sonic CD much more clearly into the role of "alternate sequel", which is neat to see. Most fans still tend to think of this as a late 1993 title, but it truly was planned much, much earlier than that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2023
  6. MasterDreamcaster

    MasterDreamcaster

    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    So, originally 8 Rounds were planned for the game.
    There is also a secret 8th Special Stage.
    SONIC THE HEDGEHOG-CD014.png
    Could there have been a possible 8th Time Stone?
    Soniccd_with_timestone.jpg
     
  7. Nik Pi

    Nik Pi

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    Um.. you know, that developers wanted to insert super sonic transformation, after collecting this time stone?
     
  8. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    I’d actually brought this up once before. I got harassed (by someone who’s thankfully gone, toxicity should have no place here) when I did, so it makes me glad to see I’m not the only one who thinks this!

    I’ve always felt like the eighth special stage is probably a remnant from when eight rounds were planned. Sonic 1 had six special stages for the six zones, and since Sonic CD added two additional rounds it makes sense that they upped the number of special stages to compensate.

    I’d imagine they kept the eighth special stage in the final game since they didn’t want to waste it and to throw in a little secret for curious players. I think the Eggman face in the background makes sense if the special stage was meant to correspond with Metallic Madness.
     
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  9. MasterDreamcaster

    MasterDreamcaster

    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    Or Stardust Speedway:
    https://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?threads/sonic-cd-3-3d-similarities.41548/
     
  10. Forte

    Forte

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    I would like to see some proof.

    Anyway, it's a funny coincidence that Sonic CD has 7 stages without Dubious Depths. It somewhat helped to set the number of magical stones in Sonic games to default seven. Seven Chaos Emeralds, Seven Time Stones etc.
     
  11. Palas

    Palas

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    I find that unlikely, because if they wanted to include Super Sonic, they'd have done it anyway. And we didn't get another transformation (not counting Hyper Sonic) until like 2007 maybe? Don't think it was in anyone's mind back then.
     
  12. Nik Pi

    Nik Pi

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  13. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

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    Heh, I feel so silly. I just realized "You Say!" is probably a reference to "Yuusei".

    We can speculate all day, but remember that there's more proto builds out there of SCD that the press had but we don't yet have (and may never, but I hope that isn't so). Anyone else remember those weird old magazine shots that largely reflect what we can see in 0.02, but with more content? That's the build we want! Collision Chaos with major differences, a Sonic 1 rotating stage, and an early 3D stage with balloons. Of course, those could all come from different builds (maybe the S1 style stage was earlier before they went 3D), but they're certainly from around the 0.02 era. 510, while certainly different, is clearly pretty solidly headed in the direction of the final game by that point in development.
     
  14. GoldeMan

    GoldeMan

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    Finally someone else mentions the Sonic 1 Styled Special Stages, another deep Sonic CD Mystery. I don't remember where but I vaguely remember reading some kind of developer interview / tweet thing where it was explicitly implied that it was the original idea for the special stage before the UFO concept took hold, maybe going with the 3D Idea since it showed off the Sega CD capabilities more explicitly. Take that with a grain of salt as I don't remember where I read it.

    The only screen shot of it that we have is from "Sega Summer Catalogue 1992". Do we know when this was dated as that'd give us a good idea of when it was planned. It was also paired with a screenshot of Collision Chaos, thought to be a mockup. It is possible the special stage picture is also a mockup, but with there being a UI element (the slot machine) it seems a tad less likely. There is also a weird yellow border around the image too, doubled by the black border on the actual Catalogue page.
     
  15. Mazin stated that he saw the Sonic 1 Styled Special Stages in a video at a 1992 toy show, and the way he describes it certainly gives the implication that it was indeed playable, the Cutting Room Floor mentions that Sonic CD's planner Hiroaki Chino said that the developers thought the Special Stage was too slow, causing them to rework it into the one seen in the final game. So the screenshot in Sega Summer Catalogue 1992 is most likely a screenshot of gameplay of that version of the Special Stage.
     
  16. GoldeMan

    GoldeMan

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    That's what I was thinking of! Thanks for finding the sources for that. Really interesting, it seemed to be a really early showcase if it was a 1992 Toy Show, it was not Yuusei Sega World, or at least we can assume not as there seems to be no implications anything but Salad Plain was there.
     
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  17. PimpUigi

    PimpUigi

    ------- Route Magician ------- Sonic CD Technician Member
    I've often thought the Time Stone that Robotnik flies away with at the end of the game is the Time Stone you would collect in Special Stage 8.
    I've modified the code to allow you to collect a Time Stone in that stage, and it comes down as the same Time Stone color from Special Stage 4. So not quite the Sky Blue stone that Robotnik is carrying, but yeah. Cool coincidence that it was at least the Blue Time Stone.
     
  18. Palas

    Palas

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    Very interesting! It would have also sucked ass, so I'm happy they didn't go through with it.
     
  19. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    Why so? Wouldn't it have been interesting to see or play with?
     
  20. Palas

    Palas

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    Eh, not a fan of the whole "ring monitors become super monitors" idea.