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Sonic CD's Mysterious Cut R2 Level Discussion - Post Origins Edition

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, Jul 12, 2022.

  1. DefinitiveDubs


    The Voice Maestro Member
    Cyber City
    Mega Man Zero: The Definitive Dub
    I can definitely see why they changed "Radical Root". Ugh.
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  2. Woof, "Radical Root" definitely sounds like an early name lmao
  3. MasterDreamcaster


    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    I try not to send many questions: ask them only if he replies to a previous question.
  4. MasterDreamcaster


    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    A theory: maybe they started to make alliterative names, beginning from "Round 2"? Like: "Look, we have R2, let's make a name with 2 R's here, Riddical Roots, for example" (roots can be seen in extended animation from Sonic CD – when hedgehog runs into the Antlion trap).
    So, the idea was cool, and they changed Salad Plain to Palmtree Panic and Crazy Toy Box to Wacky Workbench. Then revised R2, the level which they named in an alliterative way first, and gave it another name.



    Does this mean all 8 Proto names were Plant Themed?

    Cacti Chaos?
    Sunflower Speedway?
    Wacky Winterberry??
    MorningGlory Madness???

    Now we have 2 names, with Dubious Depths making, by far, the most sense for the "later" name.

    Get that wiki updated guys and gals. That's our second source. I don't want to hear no more "misremembering" nonsense.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
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  6. Battons


    Shining Force Fan Member
    I find it amusing that Mazin knows its about R2 as-well hahaha
    Here is a link to the tweet for those curious.

    Getting a second person to back up Ohshima pretty much removes any doubt I may have had while dwelling on this for a few days. I will say that phrasing the question the way this person did was very leading and wish they would have asked it differently.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
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  7. synchronizer


    That art on the top right looks like an improvement of some not-so-great pixel art I made a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago. I wish I could find the original. i might've posted it on retro somewhere.
  8. MasterDreamcaster


    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    For Sonic CD's 30th Anniversary in September of this year? There is hope we'll get more info on its development by then.
    Maybe there were some roots as obstacles. Sonic Mania Team used dangerous plants in Stardust Speedway – a reused idea from early Sonic CD?
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
  9. McAleeCh


    True I suppose - even though we know not all of the stages had alliterative names at one time, I guess that doesn't mean one or more of them couldn't have been alliterative from the start. Without seeing design docs with actual stage names from the Salad Plain era, it's impossible to know either way.

    I don't see why they'd remix it personally - in theory nobody outside the development team would know it was originally a track for a stage.

    Re: the birds, the Little Planet map concept art shown in Origins depicts a forest with some machinery as the first part of the stage before it goes underground, which would fit very well with the bird song at the start of the track. Plus, it's pacy enough to work during gameplay once the main melody kicks in, and that melody would work well with a mysterious vibe suitable for both a forest or exploring underground ruins. Interestingly, the actual forest seems it may have been added in pencil over the top of the original map, suggesting the idea for the stage's setting may have changed slightly after the map had already been drawn. Alternatively, I suppose it could just mean that whoever drew the map didn't make it clear enough the first section was supposed to be a forest, and had to go back and make a correction later on.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
  10. MasterDreamcaster


    Running Up That Green Hill Member
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  11. MasterDreamcaster


    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    All thanks to N. Ohshima – he said he would look it up…
    …and so he did!
    Prior to that, we did not have a name for R2. But now, there are two names!

    Special thanks to @PimpUigi for suggesting a way to confirm the authenticity of the original message.
    I should have thought beforehand about providing a proof, it’s no wonder many people doubted initially, making jokes about “dubious” nature of that post. Of course, it’s better to present any piece of information with something that can prove its validity. For example, if I say: “There is a prototype of Sonic 2 in my collection”, some demonstration is needed:

    It’s wonderful to learn new facts related to video game development. I hope we will be able to discover the depths of knowledge about making of Sonic games…
    …and get to the roots of many secrets!

    (here’s another unused level idea, this time from Sonic 2 – and it also has a name with alliteration: Madness Mountain, which looks to me like something from Prince of Persia (1989)):
  12. MasterDreamcaster


    Running Up That Green Hill Member
    Hmmm. R2-D2. 2 R's and 2 D's. Ridicule Root and Dubious Depths.
  13. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    bed 'n' breakfast Wiki Sysop
    Northumberland, UK
    Wiki and Minnie's Runaway Railway

    Now make it better.
  14. Nik Pi

    Nik Pi

    Well, my friend, Pacca the satyr also have made mockup of this zone..
    Hope that I'll get enough skills to recreate it in MCD version
  15. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    I really wonder why people think that this zone would have ruins (as show in some of the mods screenshots and mockups)
    Something says to me that it's due to it supposedly being CD's equivalent of Marble Zone, but for me it doesn't make much sense.

    Marble Zone is a level that have surface sections and underground sections, and I feel that what has been show of R2 only suggests that it would have the latter.

    -The Credits Animation depicts Sonic in a cavern-ish environment with some machines.
    -That Little Planet concept art also depicts R2 as a full underground zone with a few machines.
    -And the concept art from the dev's diary video, it only shows a foreground that resembles structures of ruins, and that's it.

    For me there's nothing of Marble Zone here, Ruins neither, for me it definitely looks more like Sonic 2's Hidden Palace Zone, it was a level without structures of ruins but with a foreground of one, was meant to take place underground, and of course, have waterfalls, just exactly like that R2 art, for me it's likely that R2 took some inspiration from HP or that HP took from R2.

    I have a belief that S2 and SCD exchanged concepts between one and the other during their development, or at least shared some of them.

    -For me Collision Chaos feels more like a mix of Spring yard with Casino Night, CN elements specially in the boss.
    -The Wark Workbench's floor that takes you to the highs reminds me a lot of the tube caps from Oil Ocean, which also have the same mechanic or at least one similar enough.
    -Quartz Quadrant and Stardust Speedway are the zones I believe that are their own thing, people say that SS resembles Starlight Zone but I strongly disagree, it's only visually imo, level design and mechanics reminds me much more of Chemical Plant.

    And it's also possible that it took some concepts from S2's deleted levels, I can definitely see elements of Cyber City in different CD zones.

    The D.A Garden song also makes me think of a totally cavernous zone, rather than lost ruins or something.
    (Also, the bird sounds in the beginning reminds me of the ones used in the end of "Miracle Blue ~ Peaceful World" from the STH Remix album, which also gives the possibility of D.A Garden being a remix)
  16. BlackHole


    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    There's concept art of viaducts with rainbow waterfalls, and since it was basically a Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive) port and Marble Zone is the second Round it's a fair conclusion.
  17. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    Eeeh I literally talked about this concept art in just 3 paragraphs below, and I still have the same opinion, it doesn't have anything do to with what is show in Marble Zone or full structures of ruins, but rather Hidden Palace from Sonic 2, as it also have viaducts and literally waterfalls.
    Also I don't think it's right to call it "Sonic 1 Port", that interview for Sonic stadium says "Sonic 1 version for Mega CD", "Port" and "Version" aren't the same thing, a port is a port, you have a game in a different system, but it's still the same game, it's just in a different system. "Version" can be a totally different production, Sonic CD is a complete new game, that's why people usually don't call Sonic 1 & 2 (8 bit) as ports, but as MD/GG versions of the 16-bit titles, as they are totally different games with different and even new ideas.
    CD is indeed S1 revamped, but its purpose allows it to test completely new ideas that weren't in Sonic 1, and even borrow some from other games (as S2).
  18. Quickman


    be attitude for gains Tech Member
    omg porjcet well as an overground forest canopy drawn on top of what was printed. R2 isn't just the cave system, it's the whole pie slice between R1 and R3.
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  19. Palas


    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
    The idea of SCD borrowing from S2 is interesting, not the least considering how S2 was supposed to have time travel too at some point. It's hard to imagine the teams not communicating ever under no circumstances whatsoever, considering how the team was split.

    Still, it's an idea that we should use with caution -- along with the idea that SCD level themes are just S1 level themes on steroids. Granted, it seems pretty obvious looking at them, but using that piece of common sense as a springboard to other conclusions (not to mention, about something as daunting as R2) is risky at best, especially because we don't know for sure if that's a) true b) on purpose c) happened for the reasons we might believe it happened.
  20. SystemsReady


    I Have No Idea What I'm Doing At Any Given Moment Member
    The Twin Cities
    trying to not fall asleep while writing Selenium tests
    if this was the case, the majority of Wikipedia wouldn't exist. Interviews, written accounts by third parties, and, yes, twitter posts by creators are considered valid sources by most people because quite often that's all we're going to get. Forever. My head hurts thinking of trying to, say, write an article about a band by the standard of "even the smallest shred of doubt" when no one's writing shit down (why would they) and all we have are people recounting stories to an interviewer quite possibly years later.

    Yes it would be preferable if we had the documents themselves, but even these can be misconstrued by Retro fans. how many times have we had slides/scans of some development doodle and it turned out to be something completely different when explained by Yasuhara or whatever? and then there's also that especially back then, things tend to change in development a lot, faster than any hard copies of documentation can be accurate to, so there's often documentation that contradicts each other. The lack of discrete version control and the necessity of physical test copies muddies this even further; today we have the luxury of Github timestamping everything but they didn't have that back then making CD. Quite possibly every programmer had a different build of their own with whatever bit they were implementing into it, and this would result in contradictory builds if they were burned onto a cartridge and leaked.
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