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Sonic CD's Mysterious Cut R2 Level Discussion - Post Origins Edition

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, Jul 12, 2022.

  1. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    That and the infamous example where someone showed Yasuhara a picture of Mystic Cave and the desert zone, and asked him "which one of these is Dust Hill?" and he pointed to the latter.

    In the context of Brenda Ross, there was a very important difference: the community did not ask her "what was the name of the level?" They asked her "was Dust Hill the name of the level?" And that wording can mess with someone psychologically when recalling memories. It's a lot like the car crash experiment, where asking people about two cars hitting each other, as opposed to smashing into each other, causes very different results about what they remember. And I shouldn't even need to point out the issues with the Yasuhara incident. In general, the community is a lot better at not coloring developers' memories when asking them to share information.

    On an unrelated note: the name for the proposed new R2 added to the 2011 version was "Desert Dazzle". It's a funny coincidence it was alliteration with D's.
     
  2. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    [​IMG]
     
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  3. T.Q.

    T.Q.

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    Here's a far-off/ridiculous question.

    What if the developer wrote on the paper with the planet map "R2 = Dubious Depths" (well, in Japanese writing, not English script) prior to us knowing the map's existence? And then it was presented to us today? Would we have taken it as fact if the planet map was released today?

    I'd certainly think so, we'd be in awe about it.

    But then it makes the following assumption: All media from the past is authentic/unaltered.

    Given that we have the planet map today, if we were shown another planet map that looks the same, except with the "R2 = Dubious Depths" writing, we'd be skeptical about taking the word of the person because we'd think it's a forgery.

    But then it makes another assumption: There are no copies of a piece of documentation presented.

    So we can start going through a spiral of more speculation and hesitancy in taking a claim and presenting it as some fact because other questions will pop up, and we'd never settle on how to present the news we receive.

    So...this seems like the case of us not being in the same room as the developers where we can 1st hand see/hear the discussions from 30 years ago.

    I don't know how folks want to reconcile the unknowns that will continue to exist. A time-travel machine to go back to the past hasn't been made, as far as I can tell.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
  4. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

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    Sorry, I think it looks a bit better now, "Just Made It!"
     
  5. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

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    This looks great and could easily pass for the real thing, although it lacks several elements from the Toei animated segment (the large engine turbine, the collapsing platforms), still a pretty good looking attempt however and would be a great basis for a final stage if a full tileset were somehow possible.

    https://gamebanana.com/wips/71948

    For those of you who've not yet played it, this mod is a bit rough around the edges but does create a functional Act 1 with all 4 time zones. It currently doesn't have any of the unused enemies or other stage gimmicks that rely on unique mechanics (like underground fans or machinery), but I do like the tilesets used for the Past and Present so far and the stage design is simple but passable for a mod that's only about 1/5 done. I consider Dubious Depths to be the final frontier for classic missing content, so I'm happy to see even incomplete attempts to recreate it being made.


    I've also been fond of the fangame Sonic DVD's take on a ruins stage inspired what was known of R2 back then for some time now (including functional versions of all the round's enemies) , although it's clearly not meant to be an exact recreation and doesn't in any way have time travel. The fact that it has working fans and other mechanics (taken from Hydrocity) ends up being a nice coincidence considering the early planet map showed similar gimmicks in the real stage.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
  6. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

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    Nobody, It was just something that I had in mind and thought it could be true, actually not a exactly a total desert zone, but a zone with with sands and cactus at least, something totally apart from what would become of Desert Dazzle.

    I don't believe the cactus were extra details only made to make the planet look more alive, as they also show up in the good future version of the planet, and even if they aren't present on the bad future version, you can still see those weird shaped green trees or something that stay behind them (I really don't know what the heck they are)

    Since a week ago my usual thoughts about R2 were: a zone with Ruins, but these ruins were covered in sand, giving it a apperance of ruins lost in the desert, would explain the presence of cactus.

    Now my current thoughts are, R2 is indeed in the depths, and above it, there's a desert, would explain why there's so many thinking that as CD's equivalent of Marble Zone, sand would replace the lava, so maybe, sand that falls from the desert above these ruins, and this desert is the one show with the cactus on the planet in D.A Garden.

    Okay maybe It's already way too much of my craziness for today.
     
  7. synchronizer

    synchronizer

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    At first I thought maybe Naoto was making a joke about being doubtful. Why would the Depths be Dubious? That's something a human does.
    I guess it's a case of poor translation.
     
  8. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I believe the cacti are there in the Little Planet map because Collision Chaos seems to have cacti in its BG, as well as its foreground in some timezones. Same reason there are volcanoes -- they're the ones from the Tidal Tempest BG. Chances are the map was drawn after R2 was scrapped, so there wouldn't have been any need to depict it.
     
  9. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    A definition of 'dubious' can mean something is unreliable or suspicious. I can see how it got it's name, by that angle.

    As for the R2 mockups I've seen over the years, whether it's DukeofPalette's or Taxman's incredible stuff, I'm not sure if either really capture what comes to mind when I think of what it might've looked like. The planned theme (D.A. Garden song) gives the impression of a sort of cavernous jungle-ruins setting. The neatly laid bricks and neon colors of most takes on R2 don't really fit that for me, and the desert aesthetic definitely doesn't.
     
  10. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    Do Palmtrees Panic?
     
  11. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    I don't find workbenches particularly wacky.
     
  12. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

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    Hmmmmmm I really don't see cactus in CC even if I force myself to, actually CC for me works much better here
    341 Sem Título_20230124231900.png
    Weirdly, it's mostly past elements.
    Those weird green trees near to the volcanos could be very well the trees in the background of Tidal Tempest tbh.
    But I'm still stuck at the cactus.
     
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  13. synchronizer

    synchronizer

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    Panic is a noun there. No need to poke fun. :P

    I did actually think "Dubious Depths" was a semi-sarcastic joke way to say "I don't know the name. I'm doubtful about it."

    If it really was going to be a dungeon level... I admittedly would've liked "Dungeon Depths."
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
  14. DarkVDee

    DarkVDee

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    Can't believe it was a dumb luck for my fan project to be a coincidence with those elements X D
     
  15. And when's the last time anybody saw a Speedway made of Stardust? Or a particularly Wacky Workbench? Heck, Tidal Tempest isn't exactly a violent, raging storm level, either. A level name like "Dubious Depths" would fit right in with the rest of CD's names, which oftentimes tend to be more alliterative than descriptive and all have each word start with the same letter;
    1. Palmtree Panic Zone
    2. Dubious Depths Zone
    3. Collision Chaos Zone
    4. Tidal Tempest Zone
    5. Quartz Quadrant Zone
    6. Wacky Workbench Zone
    7. Stardust Speedway Zone
    8. Metallic Madness Zone
    It fits like a glove into the list; so if the name was just misremembered, it's pretty darn lucky that it lines up seamlessly with the rest of the level names in CD.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
  16. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    Cacti:
    cacti.png
     
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  17. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

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    All the more reason I'd still like to see you finish this Zone. It's not a 1/1 take on the original concept, but it's not a bad interpretation of it by any means, especially given the things we've discovered since.

    Though again, I'll also be watching the other mod closely.
     
  18. T.Q.

    T.Q.

    The Sims 2, Tim Drake [Robin] Member
    So 5 of these levels has names with "distressing" qualities to them (Panic, Chaos, Tempest, Wacky, Madness)

    Don't know how the other 3 relate.

    What a fun experiment, maybe soon we'll find a hidden message in these zone names.
     
  19. DarkVDee

    DarkVDee

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    Funny enough I've been slowly making R2 (yet another one) with a few friends as a mod for Sonic CD (2011 - Decompiled). We'll try to release it later this year
     

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  20. PimpUigi

    PimpUigi

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    And now Mazin has tweeted that his memory is hazy but he believes what Naoto Oshima said is true.
    He also indicated the initial name may have been Radical Root; I like both Dubious Depths and Radical Root. Amazing how close Radical Ruins was DVD. ;p

    Art by DVD:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
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