Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by iojnekns, Oct 29, 2009.
Well, now I feel stupid. I'll be sure to remember this in the future.
You know I can partially agree with this but just partially.
I actually found that type of gameplay fun in some ways.
I agree with you one this but only because it does sort of seem like rape. However, this is the good kind of rape. This game isn't SUPPOSED to be easy. Its supposed to be a player rape fest. This is what makes it so much fun.
The infinite lives thing is only temporary. It was primarily for the purpose of the demo. It will most likely be removed on the final release.
Again, this is what makes it fun.
Actually something similar is done in the Game Gear Sonic titles to make up for the low screen resolution. So no its not just the 3D games.
Maybe because you find them over powered. hm?
Between you and me I think there is too little Sonic Music and too much Mega Man X Music. Personally I hate Mega man but if the guy likes it then let him like it I guess.
You know what? I'd love to see you make a hack if you haven't already this thing won first prize at the Hacking contest this year and I, Tweaker, Ayla, and a few others are very fond of it and will defend it with extreme prejudiced. Yeah sure it may not be what you want it to be but its probably surpasssed Megamix (No offense Tweaker.) on multiple levels.
I'll let you in on a little secret. Your whole post made you look like a total dick. Don't take it personally as I mean no offense but it mars up your image a bit in my book. (if you even had an image to begin with.)
Ah yes, that old cliché >_>
Glisp, I'll let you in on a little secret. You're a total dick.
Though I can't agree with most of the things Copornocus said, I wasn't particularly fond of this hack either. Sure, the bosses were feats of technological genius, but they were too hard to enjoy for me. I understand it's supposed to be hard, and some people enjoy that, so this is a biased view from me, I guess.
The art, though very good, was out of place in a Sonic game. If I had never played a Sonic game before, I might like it.
The level design was about average. You'd expect a lot from a proffesional, but seeing as this is a fan hack, I'd happily say that it is fairly enjoyable, but without the 'wow' factor that few hacks have.
Some other really stupid comments: The speedometer is WAY off =P I felt there were too few badniks (both level design-wise and variety-wise).
So, all in all, it's a pretty mediocre game, but a pretty good hack. More of the technical stuff would make some of the lesser qualities less noticable.
A lot of people keep judging Sonic Boom like it's a traditional Sonic game. Sonic Boom is not a traditional Sonic game. This is like trying to compare the nextgen games to the classic ones—you're taking two drastically different creative directions and overall styles of play and trying to directly compare and contrast them to one another, and you're ultimately setting yourself up for disappointment. The two are widely different and can not be compared to one another.
Don't look at Sonic Boom as a classic Sonic game—look at it as its own entity. It's not Sonic 2, it's not trying to be, and it doesn't want to be. If you want the best Sonic-esque hack out there, then my personal suggestion is to hit up some Retro Remix, which was put together by the extremely talented Thorn and DNXDelta. If you want something fresh, new, derivative, and classy, Sonic Boom is the game for you.
One more thing, though—how are you people complaining about difficulty while in the same reign saying the level design is bland and too "hold right to win"? It's like you're having trouble holding a directional button! It's a very silly claim to make and it's totally unsubstantiated.
Well that certainly gives this hack more sense.
I think the claim is people think that "holding a directional button" the whole time makes the game lose it's challenge within the levels (which to some is an easily debatable matter). My guess is for a factory zone, they'd like slower gimmicks as well as speed gimmicks that involve you going left more (?).
Just a guess.
Just finished it, and I would describe it as like Sonic Advance 2 without boost pads, only one character, and 5x as difficult.
It was fun.
Ah I see you've noticed the personality change too. I honestly thought I was the only one.
Seriously. Everything that Jake said is perfectly reasonable and he just stated his opinion and how BAD some design choices/gimmicks/etc are. How does that make him a total dick?
Just because the hack won the contest it doesn't mean it's perfect and flawless. There is a lot of bad level design that should be fixed. Bad level design is bad level design and should be cleaned of, like crap is crap and should be flushed.
Of course, you have the ability to overlook the somewhat crap design and unfair traps, but that does not mean that everyone else does. In fact, you're minority. I JUST GOT HIT BY SOMETHING I COULDN' SEE COMING AND LOST ALL MY RINGS, FUN! TO GET PAST THE LEVEL W/O GETTING HIT I MUST GO THROUGH IT MANY TIMES!
You shouldn't need to memorize trap placement to avoid them. Period.
Now, I still find this hack really fun, but you guys are being far too lenient with it and bashing constructive criticism. What the Hell.
Saying that Boom has "bad level design" is not constructive criticism—it's a lie. The level design is excellent; whether or not it fits your personal preference of how you want a Sonic game to play, however, is a different story. People need to learn to discern between subjective preference and objective fact in their judgement of this hack. You not liking it does not equate to it being bad—it's just different from what you're used to.
Finally, what the hell do you mean by "lenient"? Because people aren't as unnecessarily harsh against the hack as some others, they're being too lenient? What? That doesn't make any sense. People will judge things from their own perspective however they please. There's no mandatory extent to which someone should be forced to express their opinion.
True, it is it's own entity, however it may not be a representation of Sonic people like. For example, next gen Sonic. How many people say that Sonic Heroes was like Sonic 2? Not many, people will admit that it's different. Did people like it though? Not necessarily. Some might have. It really comes down to a choice of preference. It is a technical achievement and I don't think anyone will deny that, but some people may just not like the game as it is. I for one find the level design in the game to be a bit too much of a maze, also there are some cheap sections of said levels (Examples: The fact that you have to roll on the ceilings to avoid lightning shock. Ok I get that you have to but why should that be the case? Also the area right before the second act boss with the two orbinauts and the electrical shockers. How do you dodge that?). Also I don't like how Sonic controls. He accelerates at a very quick rate and something about Sonic in this game feels almost floaty. I do love the new bosses in the game, the cutscenes, and the concept of act 3 (Running away from fire is very clutch)
EDIT: Ok so Tweaker recovered the topic. I was responding to his page 11 post
I'm confused. Thats like saying -
Just my two cents. Its just what you have to do to bypass that particular obstacle. Not sure why it would bother you.
Eh fair enough, seems kinda annoying just punishing you for not rolling.
You think holding right would be more fun?
Sounds like an opinion to me. It's not like "How good is this levels layout?" can be scientifically proven.
Cheap shots are bad level design. And level design is not a personal preference in many occasions. As I said, cheap shots are ALWAYS bad, and the hack is full of cheap shots.
I say that you are lenient because of how low your standards are. You said in the Oergomized topic that the level design was amazing and the edited level(s?) was really good. It was flawed, had many problems with the ground-level springs, some cheap shots and whatnot. Oerg himself said that he was not good at designing levels.
If something I said was untrue, I confused Oergomized with Sonineko. Both have awesome musics/pallets and half-assed level design.
It's not like pressing down adds much to it. It's a annoying obstacle that you cannot notice before you already get hit.
EDIT²: I just noticed that you can unroll by pressing up. Awesome addition! This comment is unrelated with the rest of this post =]
The other problem is that when rolling there's that much higher a tendency to fall off loops. Bit of a bother.
Not scientifically—fundamentally. There are, in fact, design practices and certain aesthetic properties that can be objectively "bad" when it comes to level design. Among these things include broken tiles, misplaced objects, inappropriate use of level elements... the list goes on. These are the kind of factors that determine whether a level is designed well or not.
In terms of Boom's presentation, nothing about it is aesthetically designed poorly. Level tiles all fit together with no blatant seams and awkward looking bits, objects are placed properly and aligned correctly, the level flows very cleanly... etc. It is, for all intents and purposes, a well-designed level. Nothing about it is poorly designed. In fact, you could say it's exceptionally designed given the scope of the player physics and abilities that had to be properly addressed.
The issue of opinion is whether or not you like the style of play that the game is designed to accommodate. In terms of objective design issues, though, Boom has no such flaws.
You have failed to define "cheap shot" at this point. What I would say is that your level of skill is not adequate enough to recognize very clear obstacles and level quirks and you got frustrated as a result. In terms of "cheap shots," though, the only place where that could apply is when it comes to Gorbichev. And Gorbichev is hardly representative of the entire level design of two full levels.
I have never at any point said that Oerg's level design is amazing. I have no idea where you got that idea from, and I see even less how it would be relevant to this topic.
That said, my standards are far from "low"; if they were low, then half of the shitty hacks with broken tiles and misplaced objects would be like a godsend to me. I may be supportive of up-and-coming hacks that I see have potential, but at the same time that doesn't mean I think they're the best of the best—they're just very promising works that deserve attention and praise. It is not up to you to determine the intent of my feedback at any point in time, especially if you can't properly interpret what I say... or even remember what I say.
Wow, you just sound like an elitist asshole now.
Well that makes sense then.
The level layout reminds me in ways of Sonic Advance 2 and Sonic Advance 3, neither of them I hated but always did think they could have stood for improvement (but then again, everything ever made could always use improvement or changes ).
Please stop assuming that everyone is coming into this expecting a Sonic game Tweaker. I came into this with a clear mind since I've already given up on a lot of you trying to make even a basic Sonic game.
From the videos posed by the developers (Not the one by Rox or Tweaker, you guys were terrible) this games seems to be designed around the idea of high technical skill level. However, you leave no learning curve for anyone new to this style of play to get use to. Sure you know all the tricks and secret, but that's because you've worked on this game and play tested it. You know when to use what, how to use it, where the secrets are and the traps are and it's only a matter of just remembering to time it properly. In return for this knowledge ahead of time, you take less hits, clear the levels faster, and get a better score.
Anyone fresh coming in will see nothing but a confusing layout, spike traps, electric traps, springs that lead you to damage, annoying orbinauts and two useless moves. In a technical level of play, you could eventually learn how to get past most of the obstacles after enough practice. The problem is that the game focuses just on the technical aspects, forcing the player to learn these and use them precisely in order to clear a stage with a decent performance.
High level play is awesome, no argument against that, but when you don't have some basic ground in there to make the game just as fun then it's pretty much useless. You should be able to snare a general audience and convince them into being a little smarter, and not expect the audience to know right away the proper way to use the more advance techniques.
The only decent example I can come up with is a game of Street Fighter Alpha 3. The basic fighting game is there. It's very fun and anyone can hop in and enjoy just pummeling everyone. Maybe after a while you decide to stop smashing buttons and learn to play a little bit smarter, a little bit more offensively and learn some of the more technical aspects. And once you do, you discover this beautiful deep system that sets you apart from the others and only encourages you to keep playing this way as the trade off for this more advance knowledge is obvious when you notice your Win:Lose ratio and it ends up feeling good man.
I can't get that same feeling here because no such learning curve exist. I just have to continue hitting spikes or orbinauts until I just memorize their locations and learn to time my moves right. Until then, the slowest, least entertaining way to clear the stage is just hold right, and occasionally jump.
Also, I'm amazed how no one has posted a no-hit clear of the second boss. Is it even at all possible? Because all I'm seeing is videos of people getting desperate in the end and aggressively attacking the boss before their ring count runs out.
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