Sonic Boom

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by iojnekns, Oct 29, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Emerald Spirit

    Emerald Spirit

    Squandered Potential Member
    Well, now I feel stupid. I'll be sure to remember this in the future.
     
  2. Glisp

    Glisp

    That one weird guy that does stuff. Member
    1,278
    1
    16
    Bloomington, IN
    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    <!--quoteo(post=367825:date=Oct 30 2009, 06:02 PM:name=Copornocus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Copornocus @ Oct 30 2009, 06:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=367825">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I found this hack to be extremely underwhelming. From the plainness of the title screen to the blandness of the level art, there are just so many things that seem cheap and uninspired. I'm going to try and review this as a general gaming fan and not specifically a well-seasoned Sonic fan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's nice.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, Sonic is just too fast for the engine to handle. I like to call this "Chemical Plant Syndrome" in that there are too many areas where Sonic will start veering off to the side of the screen at full speed because the camera can't scroll fast enough to keep up with him, and thus the player has virtually no time to react to obstacles that are rapidly approaching. Obviously, the developers themselves won't have this problem as they've spent X amount of time with the game and know all of its dirty secrets, so trying to see it from a first-time player's point of view is going to be difficult for them. But it's not challenging so much as it is unfair for the unsuspecting or unprepared player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You know I can partially agree with this but just partially.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which brings me to the level design. Simply put, it's not spectacular. It's not great. It suffers from Sonic Advance 2 syndrome in that too much of the level is spent simply holding a single direction on the D-pad while only occasionally pressing a button to jump. Fast, yes. Fun, no. Also, there a number of spots where the level is broken up into slopes that are apparently supposed to launch the player to another (usually higher and unreachable by any other means) foreground piece that just don't reliably do their job. Even at full speed. There is even at least one part that I encountered where I launched off a ramp and had to CHANGE THE DIRECTION I WAS PRESSING IN MID-AIR to reliably make the jump. Again, when this is happening at top speed, there just isn't enough time for the player to figure this out and react to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I actually found that type of gameplay fun in some ways.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the Death Egg lightning floors, I fully understand that the game is meant for the player to roll through those sections. But there are two problems with this. 1) The level layouts are so sporadic and all over the place that you never know when one is coming up and by the time you see it you simply don't have time to react to it. 2) There are a number of instances where rolling along slopes and ceilings is actually SLOWER than running. Again, it's not so much challenging as it is just unfair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I agree with you one this but only because it does sort of seem like rape. However, this is the good kind of rape. This game isn't SUPPOSED to be easy. Its supposed to be a player rape fest. This is what makes it so much fun.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the unlimited lives, I just don't know how to react to that. It's like you've taken a page from the Sonic Unleashed handbook. In Unleashed, there are a number of spots where a 1up will be located in close proximity to a checkpoint, as the developers anticipated the player having trouble getting through the upcoming area. It's pretty much the same thing here. Instead of fixing what level design issues there are (and there are plenty in my opinion), you've essentially given the player an infinite amount of 1ups to keep trying and trying again from the nearest checkpoint. I like a good part of my challenge to come from knowing I could potentially get a "game over" and have to start the entire level again. It's just a part of old-school game design that I love so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The infinite lives thing is only temporary. It was primarily for the purpose of the demo. It will most likely be removed on the final release.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The bosses you've created are insane. Any normal player can see this. They just seem like end-game type bosses in their difficulty level, not a first-level boss. I'd called it an unusually steep difficulty curve, but when the average player is already having mounds of trouble just getting TO the boss area, it's just plain unfair to also have to survive a boss of this caliber this early in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Again, this is what makes it fun.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also noticed that Sonic loses only 50 rings when he gets hit. Obviously you're taking another page from the newer 3D titles here. I've not been a fan of this ever since it was first introduced. Maybe it's just my opinion, but if Sonic gets hit it needs to be all or nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually something similar is done in the Game Gear Sonic titles to make up for the low screen resolution. So no its not just the 3D games.
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not too fond of all the new moves you've given Sonic, and the fact that they cost rings to execute is plain absurd. The double jump is pretty worthless, considering it's supposed to be a move exclusive to the lightning shield. Giving him a double jump by default is a bit redundant on this part. I honestly don't understand what good the diagonal dash is intended to do, other than suddenly running into an obstacle and losing rings. And the flying kick seemed pretty worthless until I realized that it was the best way to take out the first boss, and even then it didn't work right half the time as I would still get hit thanks to some weird collision detection on the boss. The one good thing I will say is that you at least didn't incorporate the homing attack or light speed dash into this hack, which is a road too many hacks nowadays take. Those elements simply don't work in 2D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Maybe because you find them over powered. hm?

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The one part of this game that does shine for me is the music. You have not only a good ear for melody, but for conveying it in a way that the Genesis hardware can handle. I will admit that it sounds like something more fitting for a Mega Man X game than a Sonic game, but considering the level gimmick here, it works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Between you and me I think there is too little Sonic Music and too much Mega Man X Music. Personally I hate Mega man but if the guy likes it then let him like it I guess.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All in all, this game is something that in my opinion is going to need a lot of tweaks here and there with all of its basic elements to really start coming together as a solid hack. As it stands right now, it's not something I can envision myself playing past this one time. You guys are obviously creative thinkers to try an all-out hack like this, but some of the ideas here just aren't meshing well for
    me personally. 4/10 for the effort.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You know what? I'd love to see you make a hack if you haven't already this thing won first prize at the Hacking contest this year and I, Tweaker, Ayla, and a few others are very fond of it and will defend it with extreme prejudiced. Yeah sure it may not be what you want it to be but its probably surpasssed Megamix (No offense Tweaker.) on multiple levels.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't mean to go on this long, but I felt it necessary to convey exactly what I was feeling while playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'll let you in on a little secret. Your whole post made you look like a total dick. Don't take it personally as I mean no offense but it mars up your image a bit in my book. (if you even had an image to begin with.)
     
  3. <!--quoteo(post=368136:date=Oct 31 2009, 05:43 PM:name=Glisp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Glisp @ Oct 31 2009, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368136">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what? I'd love to see you make a hack if you haven't already this thing won first prize at the Hacking contest this year and I, Tweaker, Ayla, and a few others are very fond of it and will defend it with extreme prejudiced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ah yes, that old cliché >_>
    Glisp, I'll let you in on a little secret. You're a total dick.

    Though I can't agree with most of the things Copornocus said, I wasn't particularly fond of this hack either. Sure, the bosses were feats of technological genius, but they were too hard to enjoy for me. I understand it's supposed to be hard, and some people enjoy that, so this is a biased view from me, I guess.
    The art, though very good, was out of place in a Sonic game. If I had never played a Sonic game before, I might like it.
    The level design was about average. You'd expect a lot from a proffesional, but seeing as this is a fan hack, I'd happily say that it is fairly enjoyable, but without the 'wow' factor that few hacks have.
    Some other really stupid comments: The speedometer is WAY off =P I felt there were too few badniks (both level design-wise and variety-wise).

    So, all in all, it's a pretty mediocre game, but a pretty good hack. More of the technical stuff would make some of the lesser qualities less noticable.
     
  4. Tweaker

    Tweaker

    Misfit
    12,389
    1
    0
    A lot of people keep judging Sonic Boom like it's a traditional Sonic game. Sonic Boom is not a traditional Sonic game. This is like trying to compare the nextgen games to the classic ones—you're taking two drastically different creative directions and overall styles of play and trying to directly compare and contrast them to one another, and you're ultimately setting yourself up for disappointment. The two are widely different and can not be compared to one another.

    Don't look at Sonic Boom as a classic Sonic game—look at it as its own entity. It's not Sonic 2, it's not trying to be, and it doesn't want to be. If you want the best Sonic-esque hack out there, then my personal suggestion is to hit up some Retro Remix, which was put together by the extremely talented Thorn and DNXDelta. If you want something fresh, new, derivative, and classy, Sonic Boom is the game for you.

    One more thing, though—how are you people complaining about difficulty while in the same reign saying the level design is bland and too "hold right to win"? It's like you're having trouble holding a directional button! It's a very silly claim to make and it's totally unsubstantiated.
     
  5. Sparks

    Sparks

    Member
    3,042
    20
    18
    Kyle and Lucy: Wonderworld
    <!--quoteo(post=368146:date=Oct 31 2009, 10:23 AM:name=Tweaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweaker @ Oct 31 2009, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368146">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of people keep judging Sonic Boom like it's a traditional Sonic game. Sonic Boom is not a traditional Sonic game. This is like trying to compare the nextgen games to the classic ones—you're taking two drastically different creative directions and overall styles of play and trying to directly compare and contrast them to one another, and you're ultimately setting yourself up for disappointment. The two are widely different and can not be compared to one another.

    Don't look at Sonic Boom as a classic Sonic game—look at it as its own entity. It's not Sonic 2, it's not trying to be, and it doesn't want to be. If you want the best Sonic-esque hack out there, then my personal suggestion is to hit up some Retro Remix, which was put together by the extremely talented Thorn and DNXDelta. If you want something fresh, new, derivative, and classy, Sonic Boom is the game for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well that certainly gives this hack more sense.

    <!--quoteo(post=368146:date=Oct 31 2009, 10:23 AM:name=Tweaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweaker @ Oct 31 2009, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368146">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One more thing, though—how are you people complaining about difficulty while in the same reign saying the level design is bland and too "hold right to win"? It's like you're having trouble holding a directional button! It's a very silly claim to make and it's totally unsubstantiated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think the claim is people think that "holding a directional button" the whole time makes the game lose it's challenge within the levels (which to some is an easily debatable matter). My guess is for a factory zone, they'd like slower gimmicks as well as speed gimmicks that involve you going left more (?).

    Just a guess.
     
  6. MainMemory

    MainMemory

    Kate the Wolf Tech Member
    4,543
    141
    43
    SonLVL
    Just finished it, and I would describe it as like Sonic Advance 2 without boost pads, only one character, and 5x as difficult.
    It was fun.
     
  7. Glisp

    Glisp

    That one weird guy that does stuff. Member
    1,278
    1
    16
    Bloomington, IN
    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    <!--quoteo(post=368143:date=Oct 31 2009, 02:10 PM:name=JakeyBoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JakeyBoy @ Oct 31 2009, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368143">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=368136:date=Oct 31 2009, 05:43 PM:name=Glisp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Glisp @ Oct 31 2009, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368136">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what? I'd love to see you make a hack if you haven't already this thing won first prize at the Hacking contest this year and I, Tweaker, Ayla, and a few others are very fond of it and will defend it with extreme prejudiced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ah yes, that old cliché >_>
    Glisp, I'll let you in on a little secret. You're a total dick.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ah I see you've noticed the personality change too. I honestly thought I was the only one.
     
  8. Stink Terios

    Stink Terios

    Member
    80
    3
    8
    <!--quoteo(post=368164:date=Oct 31 2009, 05:18 PM:name=Glisp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Glisp @ Oct 31 2009, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368164">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=368143:date=Oct 31 2009, 02:10 PM:name=JakeyBoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JakeyBoy @ Oct 31 2009, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368143">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=368136:date=Oct 31 2009, 05:43 PM:name=Glisp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Glisp @ Oct 31 2009, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368136">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what? I'd love to see you make a hack if you haven't already this thing won first prize at the Hacking contest this year and I, Tweaker, Ayla, and a few others are very fond of it and will defend it with extreme prejudiced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ah yes, that old cliché >_>
    Glisp, I'll let you in on a little secret. You're a total dick.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ah I see you've noticed the personality change too. I honestly thought I was the only one.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Seriously. Everything that Jake said is perfectly reasonable and he just stated his opinion and how BAD some design choices/gimmicks/etc are. How does that make him a total dick? :psyduck:

    Just because the hack won the contest it doesn't mean it's perfect and flawless. There is a lot of bad level design that should be fixed. Bad level design is bad level design and should be cleaned of, like crap is crap and should be flushed.
    Of course, you have the ability to overlook the somewhat crap design and unfair traps, but that does not mean that everyone else does. In fact, you're minority. I JUST GOT HIT BY SOMETHING I COULDN' SEE COMING AND LOST ALL MY RINGS, FUN! TO GET PAST THE LEVEL W/O GETTING HIT I MUST GO THROUGH IT MANY TIMES!
    You shouldn't need to memorize trap placement to avoid them. Period.

    Now, I still find this hack really fun, but you guys are being far too lenient with it and bashing constructive criticism. What the Hell.
     
  9. Tweaker

    Tweaker

    Misfit
    12,389
    1
    0
    Saying that Boom has "bad level design" is not constructive criticism—it's a lie. The level design is excellent; whether or not it fits your personal preference of how you want a Sonic game to play, however, is a different story. People need to learn to discern between subjective preference and objective fact in their judgement of this hack. You not liking it does not equate to it being bad—it's just different from what you're used to.

    Finally, what the hell do you mean by "lenient"? Because people aren't as unnecessarily harsh against the hack as some others, they're being too lenient? What? That doesn't make any sense. People will judge things from their own perspective however they please. There's no mandatory extent to which someone should be forced to express their opinion.
     
  10. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Member
    13,427
    666
    93
    Working on my art!
    True, it is it's own entity, however it may not be a representation of Sonic people like. For example, next gen Sonic. How many people say that Sonic Heroes was like Sonic 2? Not many, people will admit that it's different. Did people like it though? Not necessarily. Some might have. It really comes down to a choice of preference. It is a technical achievement and I don't think anyone will deny that, but some people may just not like the game as it is. I for one find the level design in the game to be a bit too much of a maze, also there are some cheap sections of said levels (Examples: The fact that you have to roll on the ceilings to avoid lightning shock. Ok I get that you have to but why should that be the case? Also the area right before the second act boss with the two orbinauts and the electrical shockers. How do you dodge that?). Also I don't like how Sonic controls. He accelerates at a very quick rate and something about Sonic in this game feels almost floaty. I do love the new bosses in the game, the cutscenes, and the concept of act 3 (Running away from fire is very clutch)

    EDIT: Ok so Tweaker recovered the topic. I was responding to his page 11 post
     
  11. iojnekns

    iojnekns

    trouble keeps you runnin' faster Member
    148
    0
    0
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Examples: The fact that you have to roll on the ceilings to avoid lightning shock. Ok I get that you have to but why should that be the case?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm confused. Thats like saying -
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Examples: The fact that you have to jump in the air to get past spikes. Ok I get that you have to but why should that be the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    or
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Examples: The fact that you have to press down to work the pulleys in MHZ. Ok I get that you have to but why should that be the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    :)

    Just my two cents. Its just what you have to do to bypass that particular obstacle. Not sure why it would bother you.
     
  12. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Member
    13,427
    666
    93
    Working on my art!
    <!--quoteo(post=368180:date=Oct 31 2009, 12:24 PM:name=iojnekns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iojnekns @ Oct 31 2009, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368180">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Examples: The fact that you have to roll on the ceilings to avoid lightning shock. Ok I get that you have to but why should that be the case?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm confused. Thats like saying -
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Examples: The fact that you have to jump in the air to get past spikes. Ok I get that you have to but why should that be the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    or
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Examples: The fact that you have to press down to work the pulleys in MHZ. Ok I get that you have to but why should that be the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    :)

    Just my two cents.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Eh fair enough, seems kinda annoying just punishing you for not rolling.
     
  13. iojnekns

    iojnekns

    trouble keeps you runnin' faster Member
    148
    0
    0
    You think holding right would be more fun?
     
  14. Sparks

    Sparks

    Member
    3,042
    20
    18
    Kyle and Lucy: Wonderworld
    <!--quoteo(post=368178:date=Oct 31 2009, 12:18 PM:name=Tweaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweaker @ Oct 31 2009, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368178">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Saying that Boom has "bad level design" is not constructive criticism—it's a lie.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sounds like an opinion to me. It's not like "How good is this levels layout?" can be scientifically proven.


    :psyduck:
     
  15. Stink Terios

    Stink Terios

    Member
    80
    3
    8
    <!--quoteo(post=368178:date=Oct 31 2009, 06:18 PM:name=Tweaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweaker @ Oct 31 2009, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368178">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Saying that Boom has "bad level design" is not constructive criticism—it's a lie. The level design is excellent; whether or not it fits your personal preference of how you want a Sonic game to play, however, is a different story. People need to learn to discern between subjective preference and objective fact in their judgement of this hack. You not liking it does not equate to it being bad—it's just different from what you're used to.

    Finally, what the hell do you mean by "lenient"? Because people aren't as unnecessarily harsh against the hack as some others, they're being too lenient? What? That doesn't make any sense. People will judge things from their own perspective however they please. There's no mandatory extent to which someone should be forced to express their opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Cheap shots are bad level design. And level design is not a personal preference in many occasions. As I said, cheap shots are ALWAYS bad, and the hack is full of cheap shots.

    I say that you are lenient because of how low your standards are. You said in the Oergomized topic that the level design was amazing and the edited level(s?) was really good. It was flawed, had many problems with the ground-level springs, some cheap shots and whatnot. Oerg himself said that he was not good at designing levels.

    If something I said was untrue, I confused Oergomized with Sonineko. Both have awesome musics/pallets and half-assed level design.

    EDIT:
    <!--quoteo(post=368184:date=Oct 31 2009, 06:29 PM:name=iojnekns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iojnekns @ Oct 31 2009, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368184">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You think holding right would be more fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's not like pressing down adds much to it. It's a annoying obstacle that you cannot notice before you already get hit.

    EDIT²: I just noticed that you can unroll by pressing up. Awesome addition! This comment is unrelated with the rest of this post =]
     
  16. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Member
    13,427
    666
    93
    Working on my art!
    <!--quoteo(post=368186:date=Oct 31 2009, 12:31 PM:name=Stink Terios)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stink Terios @ Oct 31 2009, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368186">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT:
    <!--quoteo(post=368184:date=Oct 31 2009, 06:29 PM:name=iojnekns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iojnekns @ Oct 31 2009, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368184">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You think holding right would be more fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's not like pressing down adds much to it. It's a annoying obstacle that you cannot notice before you already get hit.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Basically that.
     
  17. muteKi

    muteKi

    Fuck it Member
    7,614
    20
    18
    The other problem is that when rolling there's that much higher a tendency to fall off loops. Bit of a bother.
     
  18. Tweaker

    Tweaker

    Misfit
    12,389
    1
    0
    <!--quoteo(post=368185:date=Oct 31 2009, 04:31 PM:name=Sparks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sparks @ Oct 31 2009, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368185">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like an opinion to me. It's not like "How good is this levels layout?" can be scientifically proven.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Not scientifically—fundamentally. There are, in fact, design practices and certain aesthetic properties that can be objectively "bad" when it comes to level design. Among these things include broken tiles, misplaced objects, inappropriate use of level elements... the list goes on. These are the kind of factors that determine whether a level is designed well or not.

    In terms of Boom's presentation, nothing about it is aesthetically designed poorly. Level tiles all fit together with no blatant seams and awkward looking bits, objects are placed properly and aligned correctly, the level flows very cleanly... etc. It is, for all intents and purposes, a well-designed level. Nothing about it is poorly designed. In fact, you could say it's exceptionally designed given the scope of the player physics and abilities that had to be properly addressed.

    The issue of opinion is whether or not you like the style of play that the game is designed to accommodate. In terms of objective design issues, though, Boom has no such flaws.

    <!--quoteo(post=368186:date=Oct 31 2009, 04:31 PM:name=Stink Terios)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stink Terios @ Oct 31 2009, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368186">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cheap shots are bad level design. And level design is not a personal preference in many occasions. As I said, cheap shots are ALWAYS bad, and the hack is full of cheap shots.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You have failed to define "cheap shot" at this point. What I would say is that your level of skill is not adequate enough to recognize very clear obstacles and level quirks and you got frustrated as a result. In terms of "cheap shots," though, the only place where that could apply is when it comes to Gorbichev. And Gorbichev is hardly representative of the entire level design of two full levels.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I say that you are lenient because of how low your standards are. You said in the Oergomized topic that the level design was amazing and the edited level(s?) was really good. It was flawed, had many problems with the ground-level springs, some cheap shots and whatnot. Oerg himself said that he was not good at designing levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I have never at any point said that Oerg's level design is amazing. I have no idea where you got that idea from, and I see even less how it would be relevant to this topic.

    That said, my standards are far from "low"; if they were low, then half of the shitty hacks with broken tiles and misplaced objects would be like a godsend to me. I may be supportive of up-and-coming hacks that I see have potential, but at the same time that doesn't mean I think they're the best of the best—they're just very promising works that deserve attention and praise. It is not up to you to determine the intent of my feedback at any point in time, especially if you can't properly interpret what I say... or even remember what I say.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If something I said was untrue, I confused Oergomized with Sonineko. Both have awesome musics/pallets and half-assed level design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Wow, you just sound like an elitist asshole now.
     
  19. Sparks

    Sparks

    Member
    3,042
    20
    18
    Kyle and Lucy: Wonderworld
    <!--quoteo(post=368198:date=Oct 31 2009, 01:11 PM:name=Tweaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweaker @ Oct 31 2009, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368198">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=368185:date=Oct 31 2009, 04:31 PM:name=Sparks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sparks @ Oct 31 2009, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368185">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like an opinion to me. It's not like "How good is this levels layout?" can be scientifically proven.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Not scientifically—fundamentally. There are, in fact, design practices and certain aesthetic properties that can be objectively "bad" when it comes to level design. Among these things include broken tiles, misplaced objects, inappropriate use of level elements... the list goes on. These are the kind of factors that determine whether a level is designed well or not.

    In terms of Boom's presentation, nothing about it is aesthetically designed poorly. Level tiles all fit together with no blatant seams and awkward looking bits, objects are placed properly and aligned correctly, the level flows very cleanly... etc. It is, for all intents and purposes, a well-designed level. Nothing about it is poorly designed. in fact, you could say it's exceptionally designed given the scope of the player physics and abilities that had to be properly addresses.

    The issue of opinion is whether or not you like the style of play that the game is designed to accomodate. In terms of objective design issues, though, Boom has no such flaws.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well that makes sense then.

    The level layout reminds me in ways of Sonic Advance 2 and Sonic Advance 3, neither of them I hated but always did think they could have stood for improvement (but then again, everything ever made could always use improvement or changes ;)).
     
  20. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Member
    7,310
    2
    18
    Atomic Sonic Part II
    Please stop assuming that everyone is coming into this expecting a Sonic game Tweaker. I came into this with a clear mind since I've already given up on a lot of you trying to make even a basic Sonic game.

    From the videos posed by the developers (Not the one by Rox or Tweaker, you guys were terrible) this games seems to be designed around the idea of high technical skill level. However, you leave no learning curve for anyone new to this style of play to get use to. Sure you know all the tricks and secret, but that's because you've worked on this game and play tested it. You know when to use what, how to use it, where the secrets are and the traps are and it's only a matter of just remembering to time it properly. In return for this knowledge ahead of time, you take less hits, clear the levels faster, and get a better score.

    Anyone fresh coming in will see nothing but a confusing layout, spike traps, electric traps, springs that lead you to damage, annoying orbinauts and two useless moves. In a technical level of play, you could eventually learn how to get past most of the obstacles after enough practice. The problem is that the game focuses just on the technical aspects, forcing the player to learn these and use them precisely in order to clear a stage with a decent performance.

    High level play is awesome, no argument against that, but when you don't have some basic ground in there to make the game just as fun then it's pretty much useless. You should be able to snare a general audience and convince them into being a little smarter, and not expect the audience to know right away the proper way to use the more advance techniques.

    The only decent example I can come up with is a game of Street Fighter Alpha 3. The basic fighting game is there. It's very fun and anyone can hop in and enjoy just pummeling everyone. Maybe after a while you decide to stop smashing buttons and learn to play a little bit smarter, a little bit more offensively and learn some of the more technical aspects. And once you do, you discover this beautiful deep system that sets you apart from the others and only encourages you to keep playing this way as the trade off for this more advance knowledge is obvious when you notice your Win:Lose ratio and it ends up feeling good man.

    I can't get that same feeling here because no such learning curve exist. I just have to continue hitting spikes or orbinauts until I just memorize their locations and learn to time my moves right. Until then, the slowest, least entertaining way to clear the stage is just hold right, and occasionally jump.

    Also, I'm amazed how no one has posted a no-hit clear of the second boss. Is it even at all possible? Because all I'm seeing is videos of people getting desperate in the end and aggressively attacking the boss before their ring count runs out.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.