Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by iojnekns, Oct 29, 2009.
Gorbichev is solid, it's crushing Sonic.
Still doesn't make it a good idea.
I just love recording videos. This time, I started a legitimate no-damage run (no savestates/slowdown/etc) but got bored and converted it into a tool-assisted fun run. In the process, I managed to defeat Gorbichev without getting hit (4:45 in the video), but since I abused savestates and slowdown I would never consider it legitimate. That being said, it visually looks impressive, so there you go. Also, fuck that very last loop-dee-loop at the end of Act 3. If it weren't there I could complete Act 3 without the fire touching me once.
I think I'm having more fun trying to make a cool looking optimized run that I am playing legit, but that's not necessarily indicative of anything wrong with the game, per say, just that I'm considering TASing it.
Right then. Before I start I'd like to point out that I have never created a hack of my own, and I play relatively few of those that turn up on here. Specifically I've only really played S2 Delta, S2 S3 Edition, S3K The Challenges, Code Gray, Robotnik's Revenge, Return to the Origin, ZX, S2 Advanced Edit, The Hybridization Project, and various character ports to S1 (Knuckles, Shadow, Super Sonic etc.). OK, so maybe more than I thought :p But mostly I prefer hacks that remain relatively close to the original.
Anyway, I...am confused. Seriously, what's with all the hate? I just played through this in about an hour or so, and I loved it. I would go so far as to say that, beyond my own opinion, and as others have mentioned, this game is empirically awesome. I can't see why people would trash it even with the difficulty - it's not overbearing, and I'd rather have a game that lasts longer than some pedestrian affair I can plough through in 5 minutes.
About the difficulty - at no point did I feel that this game was unfair. Sure, there are many opportunities to get hit, but unless I've been playing some other game all these years, that doesn't really matter much in Sonic as long as you keep hold of one ring. Besides this, every time I DID get hit, I learn something about the mechanics, or the correct use of moves, or the objects, or the level layout. It didn't seem cheap, in fact given that I don't think I got hurt in the same place twice (besides just before Gorbichev as I wasn't bothered about losing a few rings with the 200-ring bonus right there) I think that the challenges were remarkably well-structured so that with a little care you could just enjoy playing, while at the same time not causing the player to become complacent. As for gimmicks, I "got" the line of rings over the pit, the rolling on the ceiling, the low jumps over spikes, the semi-hidden passages, and the destroying enemies for bonuses right away, but then again I never saw the problem with the CPZ barrels either! :v: The physics seem fine - the acceleration and jump height were strange at first, but they don't take long to get used to since, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, they're just the standard physics juiced up a little.
More specifically, I only got shot by a cambot once, and that was the very first one, which I diagonal dashed into the line of fire of while practicing the new moves. The new Orbinauts are genius - still very threatening but with no need to fire their orbs in order for you to hit them. I will say though that given the orbs are clearly electricil in nature that I was surprised that my electric shield was of no use. I think the rollbug is an excellent choice of badnik to port, simply because, like the Orbis, it requires precise timing to attack one. Most of the other badniks are too easy to kill, and something so simple would stick out horrendously amongst all the other challenges. Anyway, I died four times on King Orbi, eight on Gorbichev (one was a Time Over), and about six on Act 3, plus maybe two or three deaths within the first two acts. With regard to all the bitching about Gorbichev, again, am I playing a different game here? You don't let him trap you in the corner, and you don't sit about waiting to figure out his attack pattern. Just keep up your assault on him; he certainly isn't going to let up so why should you? As long as you grab one ring back, who cares if you get hit? This is SONIC! I got him down to half HP on my second try, and the rest were just learning what he might try. Indeed, it got a lot easier when I found the rings up above, and even easier when I stopped running away after a hit when out of rings and realised I could get them by destroying the little Orbis. Certainly there's nothing here to cry over - I died more times on the CPZ boss back in the day. And I've not felt excitement like that when fighting a boss for quite some time I feel that the naysayers need to either practice more (an hour to clear the whole thing is not excessive to me) or stop whining about bugs that exist in the original engine, which really we should all be used to by now (yes, I ran over offscreen spikes, and I also got stuck on a slope, these things happen! Cunning traps designed to take advantage of Sonic's speed indeed ) Finally I don't like all this "you can't do that!" or "that's a no-no" - I didn't like it in the "Super Mario World - The Lost Island" thread and it's no better here. Why exactly should people stick to platforming cliches all the time? If everyone follows a set of standard rules all games will end of being the same, and who wants that? Not me anyway, I welcome innovation, and when I see it I don't label it as "bad design" because it's not the same as what I'm used to.
Art style - I'll be honest, looking at the screenshot left me a bit cold, but I've definitely changed my mind It all looks great in motion, and besides this any extra detail would very likely go to waste given the speed it all passes by. Not that there's any lack of it - as mentioned, hidden passages have their own tiles, the levels are unique with all sorts of new types of platform, ramps, loops etc, enemies look great, especially the detail on the bosses, and Act 3 is just perfectly done, from the palette to the warnings (highly visible even with all that's going on) to the custom death sprite. Yes, Sonic is darker than we're used to, but I think it fits here. There seem to be quite a few new animation frames too, and they all work well together.
Music - I may be in the minority here, but I've only played X1, so the Megaman ports went mostly unnoticed for me. I do, however think that they fit the mood very well. I thought Grabbag was the "Toxic Dump" theme from The Ooze at first - I think it's the insturments more that anything as the melody is nothing like it! The level music was all brilliant anyway, nothing more to say there. As for the "Sonic Boom" theme - this is actually about the only piece of the US SCD soundtrack I genuinely like (as in I have it on my PC/phone playlist and a remix on one of my car CDs) and I think it fits well here - well, given the name of the game, duh!
So overall then, a great little game. Hopefully with time it will grow into a great big game I honestly can't believe the amount of effort that must have gone into this! A big, BIG to all involved, and thank you for spending your time on this brilliant game!
And I think those who blindly dismiss the naysayers need to go back - read - and understand what is being said. There is a difference between being different and throwing in ideas without testing them enough so all the bugs - potential or otherwise - are fixed.
One issue I found was the common issue of going around looks so fast that you phase through rings and whatnot, or you get hung up on a curve / loop for no reason killing whatever speed run you might be achieving.
The first boss is ok - once you get the hang of it, it is actually not that bad at all, and quite fun.
The second boss has a LOT of flaws. I've cursed off this boss for good reason. I mean, seriously, did you guys not test this enough or something? For one, being shoved into a wall and not being able to move until you die, or worse - being thrown out of the screen lock bounds does not make for a fun boss. I like the idea of mini orbis that give you rings, but the seemingly sporratic (sp?) and unavoidable movement of the blue balls is really annoying, considering that often they come out of nowhere and impede your movement out of a corner towards tings.
Right, so we win the contest and get whined at for not releasing, so we release it in its current stage and get whined at for not spending more time on it?? Fuck you!
What the hell is this supposed to mean? Do you even have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about? The issues that people have been blindly complaining about in most cases are attributed more often than not to a lack of knowledge and skill in regards to the new game mechanics—not any deficiency in design or a lack of testing. If anything, the extent to which this game was thoroughly tested is ridiculously absurd.
There are some fundamental flaws in regards to the difficulty of some of the new elements—Gorbichev in particular—but this seems to be the least of peoples' complaints, which are more centered around the level design (which I still don't understand—it's extremely solid and very simple to traverse even without prior knowledge of the game).
This was a completely baseless assumption that did little than make you look extremely ignorant of the process that goes behind creating these hacks.
For a debut, the stages showcased are pretty punishing for the average Sonic player, of whom aren't exactly accustomed to these new abilities, much less being initially dropped into a more dangerous and complicated stage than what is expected at the start of a Sonic game (for instance, it was a little jarring to find myself going in circles in Act 2 in particular- the game was funneling me back to a certain point, essentially forcing me to get a section instead of say, dropping me on a lower path or something). In the future this zone may undergo significant changes or even be relegated to a position later in the game, but this is all that people have to go by at the moment.
One thing I can say for sure about this hack is that it definitely plays quite differently from its source material. This, in combination with the balls-out approach to the zone in question, are throwing people off and resulting in frustration, since they haven't been given the in-game chance to accustom themselves to the the hack's nuances. I can definitely relate to this, as I often felt overwhelmed- my previous experience with old-school Sonic games meant little when faced with these new techniques and radically different design principles to what I'm generally used to having greet me at the start of a classic Sonic game, of which hacks are built on.
Now, this all doesn't matter a whole lot to me, seeing as how the hack is an inital release- I'm more interested in getting a hint of what its gameplay may be like and how ambitious it may be on a technical scale than anything else. However, I can definitely see why some people may feel a little frustrated, especially considering the hype it inevitably recieved from winning the hacking contest. They probably expected something that they would have been able to get into immediately, similar to Megamix and most of the oft-heralded Sonic games.
Wow... who pissed in your corn flakes?
There are very real problems with your 2nd boss. Yes it is an early release, and I admit, things in the earliest form often do get advised, but too many people are just blowing this off without looking at it. That is problematic, as are these issues mentioned before which I hop[e are looked at. Getting pushed off screen or cornered with no means to escape - using moves or otherwise - doesn't make a boss fun, it makes it annoying and kills the replay value, IMO.
*points to the majority of this topic*
Act 3 on an HDTV with 7.1 surround sound when it's dark with all the lights off is fucking awesome.
Goddamn I want to try that.
Well, I'd have to settle for 5.1, but the effect should be the same.
Bear in mind these things
- None of us intend to make it fun for you. We intend to make it fun for us. This could, in theory, include increasing the difficulty to challenge us elite players. You have no say.
- My cornflakes are fine - we have happily worked and played and passed it amongst ourselves for over 3 years. This should highlight to you that we are not making a hack for the 'public'. However, after winning the Hacking Contest and having read posts expressing a wish to play it, we felt it was unfair to win and simply not release. So we released in the state it is in. For this reason, frankly, telling us what we should or shouldn't have already done is infuriating on an unbelievable level.
- We will continue to carry on in our own preferred direction. If we were to make the changes you suggest, the hack would be no fun for us (the developers.) Would you work on something, for free, that you didn't really like, for some douchebag on an internet forum? We wouldn't either
- If Gorbichev was any easier, I could murder him in my sleep.
- What do you want? A professional quality finished game? We're amateurs with spare time!
Frankly, I don't want to have to act in this way. Its not the criticism. I find reading the 'reviews' by people who don't like the hack entertaining and don't take personal offense at all. I want this thread to be a nice environment to dicuss the hack, whether you liked it or you didn't. At the moment I feel like you're telling us, nay, demanding that we do certain things and are indignant with rage that we dared to release it whilst its still work in progress (a criticism that can be, but isn't, levelled at every single ROM hack ever,) loftily making suggestions from upon high, from your ivory tower. I take personal offence to the statement - "I mean, seriously, did you guys not test this enough or something?" Yeah, we really should have tested it before throwing it out there huh? We just couldn't be bothered. Do you have any idea how many bugs you can't see because they have been fixed? To then ask who pissed in our corn flakes like you are doing us a favour and we threw it back in your face?
Anyway, on a lighter note, Highfrictionzone, I thoroughly enjoyed your video, I'm still slightly overwhelmed thinking about the notion that someone has gone out of their way to play something we've done. Whilst I realise that it was tool assisted, it was incredibly cool to see Gorbichev conquered with a no hitter! It might be possible to beat that loop in act 3 by using a roll-stand trick on the downslopes prior - go into a roll and when you start to leave the camera behind, stand up again and pile on the acceleration. I also thought it was impossible to get that first 100 ring box, so well done getting that!
cornielab, you talk so much sense it physically hurts. I tried to express something to this effect earlier in the thread, possibly not as well as you just have. Other hacks have the luxury of taxing the player with very little to learn - to an extent they have already played the core game to death, the hack merely represents new content. Sonic Boom is very far removed from Sonic 2 and represents a completely different approach. For this reason, I am not surprised it is causing frustration.
JDAdams, I daresay you are the perfect player Your post brought a smile to my face, and I hope you enjoy future installments as much as you liked this one. It might have been a lot of effort, but its been fun, fun, fun. Honestly, most of the effort was 'learning the ropes' anyway. Now we're pretty comfortable, we can get ambitious
Lordofsquad, Gorbichev learnt to crush Sonic on his own. We certainly didn't premeditate the behaviour. I have a feeling that if you tried to tell him he couldn't do it anymore, we'd learn just how many of those blue spheres he could fit up your ass
You claimed that because people had said it was good, it must be bad (logic!). They you complained that you couldn't play it. Then we release it in its current state so you could play it and you complained that it wasn't finished. In the snidest way possible. You're my new best friend.
And you know, seeing it from the programmer's perspective, how many things would break by removing any "crushing" behavior, and how much time would be wasted fixing it that could be spent doing something else?
It's still a solid game, one annoyance isn't enough to stop it from being awesome.
That's because you stay on one spot all the time.
That's one hell of an assumption, isn't it?
I've been pushed when I was trying to escape, moving around not standing in motion.
This was not enough to throw one off from playing the game, nor did I imply that it was.
I say there should be a tutorial zone for the complete game, just like Knuckles Chaotix and Sonic Rush Adventure. It should help those new to the game to get used to the physics and moves.
First off, this game was sold like the best thing ever and don't tell ME this is a lie because is true. I didn't want to play it specifically I just wanted to know why the hell was this hack I NEVER heard off so fucking great to the point that won the hacking contest. The hype surrounding it was No good, I never implied this was a bad game but I'm sure as hell was sure that this hack ain't no Megamix, but by the hype it received it implied that this was going to blow Megamix out of the water. Then I play the game and realize that it has potential but it has some glaring flaws that does not make it the best hack ever. YOU release this to the public and you should expect to have criticism, no matter if is an amateur project, keep in mind I'm being constructive because I never said the boss sucks, this game sucks, in fact I believe this game ideas are good. But the execution of some of them weren't that fun. You shouldn't shrug off the criticism that the community has given to you hack, I'm not saying that you should make the things the way we want and don't make the game you want to make, After all even professional game makers don't do that. Just try to evaluate why some of the community don't like this game.
Now lets just be friends okay
I don't think a tutorial would be a good idea, the game should implicitly tell you about the moves, tutorials tend to get in the way of a game.
For me it wasn't too difficult but I can agree, the special moves have no real use.
Honestly this did not live up to it's hype but I enjoy it nevertheless and hope after the shitstorm I actually took the time to read through that the developers still release a later build.
And like iojnekns said, This game is ultimately supposed to be fun for the developers, and if you don't like it, don't play it or go make your own.
PS. The Super Peelout is awfully slow compared to everything else.
I had no part in implying that this hack was "the best hack ever." You're basically attacking us, for something that the contest judges said, and we had no part in. I think this hack speaks for itself, it doesn't need anyone to talk it up. It is what it is. You "NEVER heard of it before" because we didn't run around saying it was the best hack ever. In fact, we never said anything about it whatsoever for years! Someone played it, liked it, and said so - kind of like the way you played it didn't like it and said so. Nothing to do with us. I know perfectly well that the hype didn't do us any favours.
"You shouldn't shrug off the criticism that the community has given to your hack." Why not? I'm happy to listen to your thoughts, in fact, I asked for them, and enjoy reading them thoroughly, but we're perfectly at liberty to "shrug them off" if we want. Even if they were totally valid criticisms, even if you could prove scientifically that they would make the hack empirically, measurably better, that doesn't mean we have to respond to them. This is our baby, we are raising it as we see fit. The only criticisms that really matter are our own.
On top of all this, what makes your criticisms more valid than the opinions of people who enjoyed the things you didn't like? How are we supposed to decide who's opinions we should listen to? There are so many contradicting view points, it would be impossible to do what you are asking.
Anyway, I'm happy to be friends - I just wanted to make myself clear. Ceasefire. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
It might seem like I'm really, really serious, but we take all of this with a pinch of salt - at the end of the day, its a bit of fun. Don't worry about a little thing like a 'shitstorm' detering us. Nice that the 'shitstorm' is actually about hacking for once. That kind of 'shitstorm' I can live with.
I think he was aiming more at "you shouldn't call us dicks and other names for criticizing your hack when you not only posted it in the public domain for download, but entered it in a contest where critiquing is exactly what's used to determine a hacks place." And perhaps you guys should stop focusing on those of us who are simply saying that something in the hack sucks, and start responding to our specific examples and pointers.
Stop treating it like we're attacking your beautiful baby, we're telling you that there's snot running down it's nose.
Separate names with a comma.