I do like that idea. To those that don't know, Fancy Pants's jump allowed the player to jump off the wall in different ways by pressing a different direction when jumping. See 1:52 in this video.
Yeah, Fancy Pants's gameplay is quite similar to Sonic in some aspects. It even has momentum, something Sonic 4 Epi. 1 lacked. :v:
I think it's time to start looking to fanfics for move inspiration. Anything other than "going Super without emeralds" has gotta be good.
Take the Sonic Unleashed intro and get rid of the part where the emeralds drain and the part where he turns into a werewolf. Eggman tricks Sonic into going to his space station and robs him of his chaos emeralds, then throws him into space.
You could give him his 2P Battle powers from Sonic Adventure 2. I used Sonic Wind in my old, gross fanfics as a makeshift Kamehameha. I'd link you, but I took them down because, you know, they're terrible and like 11 years old by now. It was such a Digimon ripoff too. Each Sonic character had a 'real world' counterpart that shared most of their abilities, and at one point there were gems they used to...ugh...'Chaos Fuse'.
You never have to do that though, for good reason. You only have to fly as Tails if you want to, to explore. There were also a few nuggets of discovery for those players that did explore with Tails' flight. That's why having areas with two close walls specifically for wall jumping is a horrible, terrible idea.
This isn't a valid argument about "why not walljump", this goes more under level design than anything else. Also the same thing that you said about Tails can be said about the Wall Jump. If Sonic manages to create a good level design that doesn't require the player to use the wall jump, in other way than to explore and find new paths, I don't see why not. Seriously, whoever is against the wall jump is either having nostalgic blindness or is consumed by his Modern Sonic hate. Try to look for the pros and cons in here, the only con that I can find about the wall jump involves level design only, which would be mandatory sections, but other than that, look at the pros... It would evolve the vertical exploration for Sonic, it's gool and can create some new gimmicks. It adds something new to the game in a better way than any "air dash" or super pellout would. Honestly, all the arguments that I saw against the wall jump seemed to imply that the game will have a shitty level design by default. Like Mario games with Walljump, you'll reach to a point where there is only a wall in front of you and a floating wall so you can kick back. Sonica is trying his best to give the classic feel to his game and that involves level design, I'm sure, I seriously don't believe that he would do such sections or make the wall jump something mandatory. In the worst case scenario he would do some gimmick where you have to jump between two walls to reach to something, just that, which isn't a problem for me, to be honest due how we had almost mandatories Spin-dash related gimmicks on the classic games.
I still don't see why Sonic having the wall jump would be such a terrible idea. It would be used to take alternative routes, it wouldn't need to be forced. If you have two vertical walls close together then the option to wall jump to a higher route would be there but if you don't want to go that way you can simply continue on the normal route. In my opinion if Sonic has to have some kind of new ability for this game it should either be the wall jump or a stomping move. I don't really see anything else working for a 2D game. And once again why would the new move have to be speed based anyway? The classics weren't all about speed, they were about platforming and building up momentum.
Your quoted post wasn't an argument against wall jumping. It was an argument against wall-jumping specific areas. I'm not saying, nor have I implied that having the wall jump will give the game shitty level design. All I've said on that is that wall-jumping specific areas are retarded. Besides, I can say the same to you about air dashing. You know, the "they're either blinded by nostalgia or consumed by modern hate" part. Oh yea and also the "try to look for the pros and cons here" part. I've already said that the air dash idea wouldn't work exactly because of the existence of the fire shield, but my point still stands! I've tried to look for the pros and cons, thank you very much. I don't think Sonic should be concerned about having abilities specifically dedicated to vertical exploration. He should be getting there by going as fast as possible. That's Sonic's thing, and it worked just fine for 3 games. I'd rather there be some sort of gimmick in a level that can bounce Sonic off walls at speeds that depends on his speed going into the gimmick than make it a always-on ability. Shit, I'd even be okay with a gimmick that essentially worked just like the wall-jump you're suggesting. If I can't think of a way for the ability to work as is in the classic games, I don't think it belongs in a classic-style game as an innate ability. I just want to address this nugget of wisdom for a second. The classics were about speed. They had platforming, yes. But they were about speed. Why else would you need to build up your momentum? Why else would setpieces in the game showcase how fast Sonic can move? You used momentum to control your speed, but the games encouraged you to get from A to B as quick as possible. There's a fine line between encouraging getting to the goal quickly and streamlining the player to boredom, a line that modern games tend to err on the wrong side of. But there is no mistaking that the original trilogy of games wanted you to go fast. I've said it twice before, and I'll say it again. When I say the new move should be speed based, I am NOT talking about boosting or some shit like that. Tails can fly. That is his emphasis, he can fucking fly. Knuckles is strong. That is his emphasis, he can break shit and go where noone else can. Sonic is fast. Any move that is added should emphasize that. Jumping off a wall does not emphasize that. It just doesn't.
That post by Tiller looks so much like Rayman Origins' level design. That game fits pretty much perfectly momentum-based design because you can pull some really smooth playthroughs if you get it right. (Particularly the running-on-the-roof part after the slope)
The idea in Sonic & Knuckles is that Sonic is the "easy" game. Knuckles is the harder option, being given tougher bosses to fight with a shorter jump height. The two had slightly different goals and started from different spots anyway. The problems come from differentiating Sonic from Tails. Sonic 2 Tails is identical to Sonic 2 Sonic - the concept of special abilities hadn't been invented yet, and most of this is carried through to Sonic 3 for consistency. So rather than messing with Sonic for no reason, the idea would be to adjust Tails. A simple example - make it so Tails can't break any sort of wall because he's not "strong" enough. Force him to take the high path.
So make him have a shitty spindash and roll even though he was the one to teach Sonic the spindash? o_O Not to mention his spindash was already really damn good in Sonic 2&3&K so that would be really inconsistent.
It kinda fits. Sonic's spines could make him stronger to break through walls (except the really tough ones, for which only real spikes a la Knux will do), whereas Tails is just this bouncy orange cushion thing who can't do shit. :v: Before anyone whines about canon and explaining this downgrade in power, just make like they're in a new area where walls are tougher actually tough.
Well, both Sonic and Tails could break certain walls thanks to the spindash and rolling. How else would Tails not be able to do that without essentially adjusting his spindash and roll?
Yeah, but his having taught Sonic how to spindash, which you're using as leverage here, has no bearing upon the fact that he'd be a softer missile than would Sonic, meaning that it's not unreasonable that there could be walls that he couldn't break through. Make his spindash slightly faster, if you want—or give him a better peel-out thanks to his tails—but the speed, charge time, or whatever have nothing to do with his bludgeoning power.
Actually that's what I was kind of going for. Everything is so smooth and fluid in Origins and I thought that was a great the direction Sonic 4 could have taken. The artstyle didn't hurt either. I guess what I should be getting across is that any sort of walljump should feel natural. Right now most Sonic games have Sonic stick like Spiderman before he starts to slide, and the jumps are slow and worthless. Natural for Sonic typically means conserving momentum, so I put two and two together and thought a momentum based walljump should be tested at the very least. I don't think this would be a popular idea, but what about forced routes? Like how knuckles in Angle Island had to bust through Act1's cliff wall? Only have different gimmicks for different characters. Maybe a treadmill room locks you in, Only Sonic has the speed to break it and continue. Tails must fly up past it and Knuckles just smashes it and falls below. Entirely new sections of levels can open up, but its more through force. Also a minor detail for forest acts and the like. The grass and trees could animate and sway, and gets pulled in the direction Sonic runs by when fast enough. Entirely useless detail for gameplay, but so worth the effect.
Forced routes are just about tolerable for knuckles and tails, but for Sonic a cardinal sin. The treadmill room though is actually a good idea if you have the OPTION of speed breaking it/smashing it or flying past it. Look at the E2 fiasco, almost everything is forced "now now you MUST use this move RIGHT HERE" fuck that shit! Sonic 4 is an absolute pile of wank, alot of us have trashed it, calling for a more free, organic style of gameplay... and yet we have people here talking about ideas for specific "sections" like they're a good idea when we already know they're not.
I can write paragraphs about multiple pathways, or I can summarize them pretty simply: "No Sonic character should be forced to use anything more radical than a spin dash to get through a level normally." That said, I like the idea posed earlier about Sonic "ping-ponging" off walls. Like the pinball he was designed as. It implies absolutely no delay. No sliding down the wall like a cartoon character on a windowpane. If you press the button on time, you ricochet off the wall instantly, at (mostly) the same speed and a small height boost. Keeps your speed going, gives you a tiny extra bit of upward mobility. Press it too early, and it doesn't register. Press too late, and he doesn't bound off at mega speed, doesn't gain height. He sorta pushes himself horizontally away from the wall. Casual player's challenge, speedrunner's dream. (Like that nonsensical Peel-Out you guys love so much.) And never require it in order to finish a path, only require it to access one. And no parallelwalljumps. Yes, none. If there is a single one in the game, you know people are gonna blindly bitch about it. So much running through my head.
