Sonic 4.

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Polygon Jim, Oct 12, 2010.

  1. <!--quoteo(post=561482:date=Feb 22 2011, 07:41 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 22 2011, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=561482"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=561479:date=Feb 22 2011, 02:37 PM:name=AerosolSP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AerosolSP @ Feb 22 2011, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=561479"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about replacing his model?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Making model importers is one of the most complicated things to do. I don't think anyone will ever care enough to make one for the format that Riders, 06, Secret Rings, Black Knight, and Sonic 4 all use.

    Edit: Yes Chimpo, yes I can.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But if they use the same file-type, theoretically if someone fixed the animations we could use the superior (at least to the rest of those options) Secret Rings model yeah?
     
  2. Polygon Jim

    Polygon Jim

    Eternal Tech Member
    0
    0
    0
    across town from Hinchy
    All the bitches.
    <!--quoteo(post=561826:date=Feb 23 2011, 10:01 AM:name=Limey Otoko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Limey Otoko @ Feb 23 2011, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=561826"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=561482:date=Feb 22 2011, 07:41 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 22 2011, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=561482"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=561479:date=Feb 22 2011, 02:37 PM:name=AerosolSP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AerosolSP @ Feb 22 2011, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=561479"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about replacing his model?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Making model importers is one of the most complicated things to do. I don't think anyone will ever care enough to make one for the format that Riders, 06, Secret Rings, Black Knight, and Sonic 4 all use.

    Edit: Yes Chimpo, yes I can.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But if they use the same file-type, theoretically if someone fixed the animations we could use the superior (at least to the rest of those options) Secret Rings model yeah?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



    The Secret Rings model is much worse. Everyone goes on about how they have a massive hardon for the Unleashed model, but now that the texture is bad the Secret Rings model is superior? And it's not an identical format, Sega has been using the format from early 2005 from what I can find, and they keep updating it each game with minor changes.

    For the Wii version anyway, they didn't change the format between Secret Rings/Black Knight/Sonic 4. Though I wasn't able to import a new model over Sonic when I tried, it would crash because it's missing important things, like all the morph targets for Sonic's hands, and the model for the blur around his feet when he runs. On the other hand I can import models from Secret Rings to S4 if the model I'm replacing has no animations. The scale in Secret Rings/Black Knight seems to be x10 smaller though so it's not very practical anyway.
     
  3. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    I'll find the old avatar eventually Member
    12,252
    38
    28
    Working on my art!
    <!--quoteo(post=561943:date=Feb 23 2011, 01:02 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 23 2011, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=561943"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=561826:date=Feb 23 2011, 10:01 AM:name=Limey Otoko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Limey Otoko @ Feb 23 2011, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=561826"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=561482:date=Feb 22 2011, 07:41 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 22 2011, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=561482"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=561479:date=Feb 22 2011, 02:37 PM:name=AerosolSP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AerosolSP @ Feb 22 2011, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=561479"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about replacing his model?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Making model importers is one of the most complicated things to do. I don't think anyone will ever care enough to make one for the format that Riders, 06, Secret Rings, Black Knight, and Sonic 4 all use.

    Edit: Yes Chimpo, yes I can.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But if they use the same file-type, theoretically if someone fixed the animations we could use the superior (at least to the rest of those options) Secret Rings model yeah?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



    The Secret Rings model is much worse. Everyone goes on about how they have a massive hardon for the Unleashed model, but now that the texture is bad the Secret Rings model is superior? And it's not an identical format, Sega has been using the format from early 2005 from what I can find, and they keep updating it each game with minor changes.

    For the Wii version anyway, they didn't change the format between Secret Rings/Black Knight/Sonic 4. Though I wasn't able to import a new model over Sonic when I tried, it would crash because it's missing important things, like all the morph targets for Sonic's hands, and the model for the blur around his feet when he runs. On the other hand I can import models from Secret Rings to S4 if the model I'm replacing has no animations. The scale in Secret Rings/Black Knight seems to be x10 smaller though so it's not very practical anyway.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Personally I think it's more the animations that make the Unleashed model in this game look like crap, not the model itself (textures ruin it to some extent but not totally) Like I don't understand why they didn't just use the jumping blur from Colors and Unleashed for when Sonic jumps instead of that crappy version they have when rolling and the no version they have when Sonic jumps.
     
  4. Lapper

    Lapper

    Member
    1,546
    22
    18
    England
    Sonic Studio, Kyle & Lucy: WW, Freedom Planet
    So is there a way of making the jumping animation faster depending on Sonic's speed?
     
  5. Aerosol

    Aerosol

    FML and FU2 Moderator
    10,426
    13
    18
    Not where I want to be.
    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
    I'd prefer an animation swap actually. Just change the jumping animation to the rolling animation.
     
  6. Naean

    Naean

    Artist, photographer, audio and video editor. Member
    567
    9
    18
    United Kingdom
    2D. Sonic Level Designs
    <!--quoteo(post=562302:date=Feb 24 2011, 06:57 PM:name=AerosolSP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AerosolSP @ Feb 24 2011, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=562302"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd prefer an animation swap actually. Just change the jumping animation to the rolling animation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This.

    The Sonic 4 rolling graphics look far better and more clean cut than the jumping graphics. Plus, Sonic actually has different rolling animation speeds depending on how fast he rolls, unlike his jumping. Maybe that could somehow be copied to Sonic's jump graphics....
     
  7. total

    total

    Member
    67
    0
    0
    <!--quoteo(post=561482:date=Feb 23 2011, 03:41 AM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 23 2011, 03:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=561482"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making model importers is one of the most complicated things to do. I don't think anyone will ever care enough to make one for the format that Riders, 06, Secret Rings, Black Knight, and Sonic 4 all use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Why are you so sure about that? And if you can't make one, then why not put format specs to public?
     
  8. Polygon Jim

    Polygon Jim

    Eternal Tech Member
    0
    0
    0
    across town from Hinchy
    All the bitches.
    <!--quoteo(post=563016:date=Feb 26 2011, 10:53 AM:name=total)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (total @ Feb 26 2011, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=563016"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=561482:date=Feb 23 2011, 03:41 AM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 23 2011, 03:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=561482"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making model importers is one of the most complicated things to do. I don't think anyone will ever care enough to make one for the format that Riders, 06, Secret Rings, Black Knight, and Sonic 4 all use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Why are you so sure about that? And if you can't make one, then why not put format specs to public?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Figuring out every odd variable is kind of hard without the proper specsheets for more advanced formats. I'm not going to post a specsheet because I didn't crack the format myself, others did and I don't have the right to post it without permission. If you want to make an importer for the format go right ahead, but no one ever seems to make model imports for games, it's a very rare thing because it takes quite a bit of effort to fully reverse engineer the formats.

    I was actually going to ask you if you'd be interested in making an importer since you seem skilled at that kind of thing judging by your previous works, but you had PM's off so I didn't.
     
  9. total

    total

    Member
    67
    0
    0
    I am interested, but I was not going to make importer (I make all necessary edits by hands for the most time, so there is no need in it).

    And for those who interested there is <a href="http://forums.x-cult.org/topic/2823-sonic-the-hedgehog-x360/page__view__findpost__p__54942" target="_blank">some (incomplete) info available on format</a> I used to analyze xno. I even had some results when I rewrote it in cpp, but I gave up with uvs at that time (about a year ago)...
    <img src="http://3271.iz.piccy.info.nyud.net/i5/71/32/143271/WO_495675_800.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    PS: PMs are enabled now.
     
  10. 1stKirbyever

    1stKirbyever

    Member
    405
    0
    0
    Thanks for the info, Jim! This will help a lot! Also, to help out I've already figured out how .RG, .EV, and .DC files work, I'll make another post once I go through every value. (I'm around 4F.) But seriously, thanks Jim! :)
     
  11. Cruizer

    Cruizer

    Member
    28
    0
    0
    Australia
    Reverse Engineering the Rush series
    derp

    <img src="http://jake.arch3r.net/public/shbossrings.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
    <u><b>Splash Hill Boss Ring Map</b></u>


    My Rush Ring Mapping script is now modified for Sonic 4. I'll have a full ring map directory for you guys when Kirby (above me) gives me the .rg files. Just to note, these files are actually off by 8 pixels in both directions. When syncing them with any maps you guys make, make sure to move the layer for each ring image up and left 8 pixels each. Enjoy for now~


    EDIT: All done. They're stored <a href="http://jake.arch3r.net/public/s4" target="_blank">here</a>. Interesting note about the Special Stages (z5*), the maps are square in the size of 256*12 in both directions, however the stage themselves hardly take up half the space. It's very strange.
     
  12. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

    Member
    4,637
    1
    18
    Big bump in light of the PC release. If you have the iPhone version (or any of the prerelease versions) on your computer you can replace the LLZ2 and LLZ collision files to partially restore the minecart in the same way Jimmy did in the first post.
    [​IMG]

    Doing the same with CSZ2 crashes the game at a certain point however, presumably due to differences in objects. Can't really do much more though without a way to repack .amb files.
     
  13. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    Just out of curiosity, are you guys using the Partnernet leak for restoring the minecart level, or the final Japanese version?
     
  14. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

    Member
    4,637
    1
    18
    iPhone version. What do you mean by "final Japanese version"? It's the same as any other, isn't it? I just thought the pre-delay Wii version was mistakenly put on WiiWare for download before being replaced by the final version.
     
  15. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    I didn't know it was replaced, perhaps somebody could check just in case it can be useful for this?
     
  16. ezodagrom

    ezodagrom

    Member
    90
    0
    0
    My final post here in the retro forums as a trial member. :P

    I tried to figure out a way to replace the PC version textures with the iPad version textures, managed to find a few tools to help me with this. :P

    To unpack and repack the AMB files, I used QuickBMS and this script that someone else made:
    http://aluigi.org/papers/bms/sonic4.bms

    Anyway, here are the results, pictures comparing the default PC version textures with each of the modded ones. First one is the default PC texture, second one is the iPad version texture with the PC version "shiny" effect (no idea what's the technical name for that, but it doesn't really matter), third one is just the iPad version texture, and fourth one is the iPad version texture with the gamma lowered to 0.85:

    Sonic (G_COM/PLY/SON_TEX.AMB):
    [​IMG]

    Super Sonic (G_COM/PLY/SSON_TEX.AMB):
    [​IMG]

    Bubbles (G_COM/ENE/ENE_HARI_TEX.AMB...in the original iPad texture, the blue Bubbles holes were blue, so I edited them to purple):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Bubbles-1.jpg

    Moto Bug (G_ZONE1/ENE/ENE_MOTORA_TEX.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/MotoBug-1.jpg

    Buzzer (G_ZONE1/ENE/ENE_STING_TEX.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Buzzer-1.jpg

    Chopper (G_ZONE1/ENE/ENE_GABU_TEX.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Chopper-1.jpg

    Newtron and Newtron rocket form (G_ZONE1/ENE/ENE_MEREON_TEX.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Newtron-1.jpg
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/NewtronRocket-1.jpg

    Splash Hill Zone Boss (G_ZONE1/BOSS/BOSS01.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Boss01-1.jpg
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Boss01Defeat-1.jpg

    Crawl (G_ZONE2/ENE/ENE_GARDON_TEX.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Crawl-1.jpg

    Batbot (G_ZONE2/ENE/ENE_HARO_TEX.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Batbot-1.jpg

    Casino Street Zone Boss (G_ZONE2/BOSS/BOSS02.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Boss02-1.jpg

    Burrobot (G_ZONE3/ENE/ENE_MOGU_TEX.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Burrobot.jpg

    Jaws (G_ZONE3/ENE/ENE_BUKU_TEX.AMB...the "shiny" effect and non shiny effect pictures look identical because the effect doesn't work underwater):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Jaws.jpg

    Orbinaut (G_ZONE3/ENE/ENE_UNIDES_TEX.AMB and ENE_UNIUNI_TEX.AMB...I didn't add the green Orbinaut, file UNIUNI, to the packs because the iPad version texture is exactly the same as the PC version texture):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Orbinaut.jpg

    Lost Labyrinth Zone Boss (G_ZONE3/BOSS/BOSS03.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Boss03.jpg

    Asteron (G_ZONE4/ENE/ENE_T_STAR_TEX.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Asteron.jpg

    Shellcracker (G_ZONE4/ENE/ENE_KANI_TEX.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Shellcracker.jpg

    Slicer (G_ZONE4/ENE/ENE_KAMA_TEX.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Slicer.jpg

    Mad Gear Zone Boss (G_ZONE4/BOSS/BOSS04.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/Boss04.jpg
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/EggCapSmall.jpg
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/EggCapBig.jpg

    EGG Station Zone Boss (G_ZONEF/BOSS/BOSS05.AMB):
    http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/ezodagrom/Sonic%204%20Texture%20Mod/FinalBoss.jpg

    I uploaded the edited textures to mediafire:
    iPad version textures with PC version "shiny" effect - http://www.mediafire.com/?tv41fs0bnqc7xyn
    iPad version textures without the "shiny" effect - http://www.mediafire.com/?3745otak9h8br7k
    iPad version textures with Gamma lowered to 0.85 - http://www.mediafire.com/?3msj3fvp93yju9u
     
  17. Ayu Tsukimiya

    Ayu Tsukimiya

    UGUU~ Member
    499
    0
    16
    That's simply incredible. It's amazing how badly Sega fucked up with the cel shading.
     
  18. Could someone show...footage with this patched? It would be great to compare patched and unpatched in motion.
     
  19. Falk

    Falk

    Member
    1,568
    0
    0
    I'm willing to bet they were trying a little too hard to emulate the 16-bit 3-shade look. A little too hard.
     
  20. ezodagrom

    ezodagrom

    Member
    90
    0
    0
    Done:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyk_j0QbRf4

    First 45 seconds are showing the default PC version textures, the rest of the video is showing the iPad version textures that had their gamma edited to 0.85

    While I like the results for the Gamma edited textures in both Sonic and Super Sonic, I'm not really satisfied with the results for most enemies and bosses, in the pictures in my previous post, to me the 2nd picture is too dark and the last is too bright, so I'm going to be messing around with the enemies and bosses textures, to try to find something that is not too bright or too dark.