don't click here

Sonic 4: Episode 2 Discussion

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Chimpo, Dec 29, 2011.

  1. GeneHF

    GeneHF

    SEGA-ier than you'll potentially ever be. Site Staff
    8,417
    52
    28
    Scenic Studiopolis
    Complete Global Conquest
    ...I don't know. While some people will call him out for "trolling for hits" especially from the easily excitable Sonic fanbase, from my time with the Steam version, I kind of agree with him. Sure, the game was all right to play through the first time, but ever since I beat the game weeks ago, I've not felt like going back to it for any reason. Episode I still has me going back from time to time just to see if I can shatter my scores or times on the leaderboards. I even agree that most of the soundtrack just plain sucked, as within the first day I replaced a good chunk of the tracks in the game with other music from the series, never mind that some of the levels dragged on or just felt uninspired only accentuated by the fact that some of the music loops painfully short (30 seconds) for a level that lasts about three minutes. Sylvania Castle 3 and the Boss music are especially guilty of this.

    P.S. White Park 3 using Limestone Cavern from Sonic Adventure is surprisingly fitting, hauntingly so.

    Problems were fixed with this game in terms of physics, but everything else just feels so... well, it feels like they phoned the rest of the game in. In terms of music, I'm curious to see if they'd be willing to allow the rest of Sega Sound Team take a crack at a 16bit-esque line up (I'd argue even giving it to Naofumi Hataya instead of Jun Senoue) or having Alex Makhlouf get the biggest wet dream of his life and let him take a crack at some original Classic Sonic styled music.

    Those are just my two cents, though.
     
  2. corneliab

    corneliab

    Isn't it about time you played some VIDEOGAMES? Member
    1,586
    142
    43
    Zero Mortals
    Your extremely vague and arbitrary two cents. The only leg you have to stand on is with regards towards the music. "Feels phoned in" and "I tend to go back to Ep. 1 for the things the sequel still has" aren't even remotely clear or convincing points.
     
  3. GeneHF

    GeneHF

    SEGA-ier than you'll potentially ever be. Site Staff
    8,417
    52
    28
    Scenic Studiopolis
    Complete Global Conquest
    Didn't want to get too into it by peppering in the courtesy spoiler tags, but I may as well explain those here.

    What I meant was in terms of the level structures and such. While it's true that both Episode 1 and 2 have their lovely points of auto-play with spring-chain laden hallways and the occasional booster, episode 2 seem to be a bit more happy with them, namely White Park at times. It just makes me feel things could have been done better without resorting to springs everywhere. Despite the really annoying issues it has with how it wants to handle what layer it wants to use, Stardust Speedway would be a good place to draw inspiration from and even refine some of its setbacks.

    If anything, the level I give a little more praise for is toward Oil Desert which, aside from IntiCreates-styled love for spikes at times, felt pretty well designed aside from the foundational Sonic 4 problem of springs everywhere. Even then, it feels like they could have done a bit more with the environ than what amounted to Oil Ocean with the occasional sandy area with giant robot sandworms. Since White Park tried to play off level transitions (albeit oddly in that I think Act 3 should have been Act 1, Act 1 as Act 2, then Act 2 as Act 3, segueing wonderfully into the boss of the level), I'd have like to have seen a level with a near full desert motif as Sonic and Tails head closer to the refinery itself, like how WP1 was almost full snow before Act 2 integrated more of the carnival aspect.

    Sky Fortress Acts 2 and 3 also deserve praise for taking the idea depicted in Wing Fortress originally and turning it into two very robust levels. While there were times were I wondered if loops were really necessary, it was mostly a negligible nibble in how solid the rest of the stage felt with its used of Tails' flying partners, strategical homing attack chains on Cluck Shooters, or the odd little throwback to S3K Death Egg's light ring transports. The only thing that really dragged down the whole zone was that Act 1 lingered around a little longer than it should have, though I'm not sure if I feel that way because of the original music it has or because it was a longer Sky Chase.

    Don't have much to say about Death Egg MkII as it felt like a pretty ordinary final stage for a Sonic game aside from the screen rotation effect thrown onto the level until being dumped off to face Metal Sonic. Maybe it was because of how really powerful the Team Spin attack is, but it just utterly wrecked the Metal Sonic race with very little effort.

    That's what I mean in terms of things felt phoned in. At times, there are points where it looks like the developers were striving to create something quite good, yet there are several instances where it felt they didn't quite go all the way and resigned to the usual odd object placement. As mentioned, White Park was the biggest offender.

    As for the second part, I'm aware that Episode 2 has leaderboards of course. My problem is that I've not felt compelled to replay the game in any form since beating it. Maybe it's too soon for me to really be using this as a point of negativity, given that I only beat the game two weeks ago and the general populous has yet to tear the thing apart. If anything, I want to give this game another shot in Co-Op mode. That's where I think the game will really show some promise.
     
  4. Dissent

    Dissent

    @SailsSez on Twitter Member
    441
    38
    28
    Apparently we still need to make sure everyone knows that reviews from Destructoid don't follow the 7/10 is average scoring system that many people are forcefully fed from mainstream reviewers. Half of ten is five, thus it is average, which is how review scores -should be-. This is the system that Destructoid uses. A 5/10 means the game is your average game with nothing special and nothing horrible.
     
  5. TonicBH

    TonicBH

    more like Tonic enby Oldbie
    I'm sorry, but I find this absolutely bullshit. Sonic is pretty simple in its mechanics, and either it's going to click with them or not. There's no "IT GETS BETTER ABOUT TWO HOURS IN" excuse like in JRPGs here.
     
  6. Metal Man88

    Metal Man88

    Time Traveller Oldbie
    2,138
    0
    0
    If reviewers were the word of God, Imagine Babyz would be the ultimate game of all time.

    Close the reviews made by morons and decide for yourselves, some idiot in a chair being paid to hastily play through the game and make up enough words to pad an article isn't going to be consistent or enlightening with anything they say.
     
  7. steveswede

    steveswede

    Member
    5,032
    1
    16
    Ask my hand
    Fighting against the Unitary State of Europe
    I reckon he would have given it a 7/10 if the music was up to par but every bit of music in this game is just awful. After downloading all the music I immediately deleted the file because I felt it was a absolute pile of garbage and I would have done what Jim had done and turned the music off. Music is just as important as the game and if the music doesn't make you want to jingle to it's tune, then you are going to try to avoid it again as much as possible, even to the point of not playing the game again. It harsh having that attitude but with the levels being uninspiring, why would you want to. I find the levels to be rather long for the amount of unique content in them and the rate you get the gimmicks thrown at you makes them more obnoxious than fun. When you have a combination like that, why would you want to replay the game again.
     
  8. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Member
    14,474
    1,510
    93
    Working on my art!
    OXM says 7.5

    http://www.oxmonline.com/sonic-hedgehog-4-episode-ii-review

    Plays better, but they didn't like co-op or the underwater sections. They too gave Sonic 4 Ep 1 an 8/10 back in the day. Perhaps people simple are not impressed by the changes. Honestly this is good IMO. Hopefully the lower reviews tell Sega to just either kill off Sonic 4 and try again with Sonic 5, making it completely different (more of a sequel and not a nostalgia fest), or totally revamping Ep 3. Either way, while I liked Ep 2 more then Ep 1, it's not entirely up to snuff.

    Sega just take the good from this and then try again, only never try this style of music ever again. Ever. If you have to go "classic" do stuff like the Generations soundtrack. Also, 6 levels with 2 acts is better then 4 levels with 3 acts, and never do episodic content again (This time I'll say thank god because Ep 1 needed things fixed).
     
  9. LockOnRommy11

    LockOnRommy11

    Member
    2,673
    185
    43
    Frankly I don't want a Sonic 5 at all. EVER.

    Sonic 4 is a nice little stop inbetween the plot of Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic Adventure for nostalgia purposes. I've actually enjoyed Sonic 4 thus far, and I think I'm going to like Episode II as well, but after they do Episode III, they need to really focus on the style of Generations and how that can be implemented in future core titles. I like the 2D aspect in the 3D games, but feel that Unleashed and Colours did it purely to feel like they were nodding back to the classic 2D games, rather than trying to really bring something new in with those perspectives. I loved the classic style in Generations and if they ever made another 2D Sonic game after 4, then it needs to be like that, and I see no reason why they couldn't spice it up with modern stuff with modern Sonic (without having to put it before the modern games plot wise) but just keep the physics and maybe add a bounce here or a special item there to keep it feeling fresh and in line with the modern gameplay, ala Sonic Advance 1, 2 and 3.

    I think we're at a point where they could easily alternate between bringing out a 2D style and a 3D style Sonic game once every year, because there's already a new Sonic game once every year anyway, and they could pander to everyone. I'd buy 'em cos' I like both styles anyway.
     
  10. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Member
    14,474
    1,510
    93
    Working on my art!
    I already brought up an idea about how Sonic should go on a 2 year cycle, having 2 teams work on a 2D game and a 3D game so one can come out every year on alternating years.

    When I say Sonic 5 though I mean like Generations styled classic Sonic. Sonic 5 can be whatever they want it to be. It can be Sonic Generations part 2, or it can be a 12 stage Sonic 4 Ep 2. Names don't mean shit. As long as the Sonic # series does not rely on level nostalgia and cheesy music, I can't see too many problems.

    Honestly 2D Sonic games should have Classic Sonic and friends in them. He can be the toon Link of the series. Screw timelines, people like that chubby Sonic of yesteryear. Use it.
     
  11. Falk

    Falk

    Member
    1,569
    13
    18
    I think many of the early EP1 reviews also did give an inflated score because it was supposed to be the 'omfg throwback to classics' savior game that 'everyone' (read: 'gamers') was hoping for after the 'modern garbage' since 2006. Many of the early reviews really were before it really sunk in that EP1 actually -was- a massive pile of poop.
     
  12. Arique

    Arique

    SHUWATCH! Member
    I'll agree with OXM on the fact that the Underwater sections are a nightmare. I still can't beat White Park Act 3, dammit! :argh:
     
  13. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

    Member
    5,611
    559
    93
    Come again? White Park 3 is piss easy. Absolutely terrible, but easy nonetheless. The water sections in SC1 and 2 are highlights in level design if you ask me. They offer a change of pace that's easily avoidable if you have the slightest clue what you're doing. Not to mention they're short anyway.
     
  14. Spanner

    Spanner

    The Tool Member
    3,352
    162
    43
    United Kingdom
    Sonic Hacking Contest
    Yes, so many other people could have handled this soundtrack instead of Jun Senoue, but what do you expect when Takashi Iizuka only approached one person to do the soundtrack for this game? Future episodes won't change, and thinking of a potential Sonic 5 without the likes of Dimps and Senoue would surely result in disappointment.

    Also...
     
  15. Yash

    Yash

    CHOCOLATE! Member
    730
    321
    63
    Yeah, I don't get why they wouldn't start using Classic Sonic every other game or whatever. They talk about brand synergy, which sounds logical on paper, but look at Mario. The 3D games, the 2D games, and the RPGs all have different art styles and they all sell hugely. Hell, even between the RPGs, there's the Paper Mario style and the Mario & Luigi style.

    I guess for Episode II they'd want to have the continuity between that and Episode I, which I get, but the next 3DS/Vita sidescroller should use Classic Sonic.
     
  16. XCubed

    XCubed

    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    Sweeeet! I like it with the exception of the lead melodic voice/intrument used for the "solo" part. Sounds too bright and 8-bitty.

    Edit: Just got home to hear this on real speakers...May want to check some of those notes in the bass line too :)
     
  17. Thousand Pancake

    Thousand Pancake

    Being a food you put milk on and then eat in the m Member
    360
    0
    0
    I noticed that White Park Act 2 resembled Sonic Advance 2 with 50% less Hold Right To Win. And I kind of like that for some reason. :v:

    Now for something completely different.
    <frustratedwishfufillmentrant>
    I think that if I were heading Episode 3, here's what would be changed:

    -Physics rewritten from the ground up to resemble S3K
    -No more Sonic 2 snare
    -Musicians other than Jun Senoue
    -Level layouts by an entirely different and less spring-and-boost-pad-happy team, possibly the team at Mediatonic who did the Sonic Level Editor.
    -Graphics would still be done by DIMPS, to maintain consistency with the first two episodes
    -Classic Sonic skin
    </frustratedwishfufillmentrant>
     
  18. Machenstein

    Machenstein

    Member
    830
    0
    0
    I just want Sega to do with Sonic 4 what New Super Mario Bros. Wii did for the DS version. I don't want them to simply repackage the episodes as they are, but instead make a whole new game that uses the same enemies and locales. As for the Episode 1 levels, I would either just ignore them or make them tutorial levels for an optional tutorial mode. Sadly, some people do need tutorials to play Sonic games.
     
  19. LockOnRommy11

    LockOnRommy11

    Member
    2,673
    185
    43
    I don't think they need to change anything in particular, but they certainly do need to ADD to the game. I wouldn't want the same enemies as the original games. Episode I was nice but it was time for a change, definitely, and they did a good job with that.

    As much as I enjoy Sonic 4 (as a whole, as from what I've seen of Ep II I'm going to love that too), it's already been done before. Sonic Advance took the style of the classic games, gave them the Adventure style lick of paint and kept the same physics. We had familiar but new enemies, more playable characters with extra but non-essential moves, completely new boss fights, less use of dash pads more comparable to Sonic 2, tonnes of replayability with a decent difficulty and varying routes, brilliant music which stuck to its roots without using the same sound font, a Super Sonic level, frantic and fun multiplayer expanded from the originals, AND a Chao Garden.

    Oh, and it even had a sound test. :colbert:

    There's a notion out there (seems to be forced upon us by SEGA) that Sonic 4 is awesome because it does stuff again that hasn't been done in a long time and that because that's the case they can get away with skipping certain things. Sonic 4 has been a good effort so far, with improvements made since its inception, but SEGA need to remember that there's been games recently which have done the same thing which more stuff included. I entirely believe that they skipped on the physics of Ep I because they thought that people wouldn't notice the difference much (which actually was the case with some professional reviewers), and they're still missing out on the complete package by not including things like a sound test or a difficulty option, and all the stuff that makes the game the complete package. It's neither here nor there that a sound test makes it a better game, but it makes it feel like more of an effort to link the game back to the past titles, which is what Sonic 4 is entirely about anyway.

    Also, whilst I actually like the music for Episode II, it had to grow on me. Death Egg Mk II sounds like nothing from any 2D Sonic game. They could definitely do with listening to the original games and how the MgeaDrive purosely tried to emulate realistic instruments.

    Something entirely positive from me now is that even though I liked Episode I to begin with, I feel like SEGA have really justified that game and the length, style and design choice of the first episode with the content of the second, from the new tropes and styles of the levels to the inclusion of Metal Sonic's extra game mode. They've really done well this time and I'm new starting to see a little bit of SEGA's vision for Sonic 4 and I've realised that hell, it's actually a lot better than everyone thought.
     
  20. Josh

    Josh

    Oldbie
    2,123
    1,086
    93
    USA
    I think it's fairly accurate, actually. Yeah, the mechanics are simple, and in fact the games are usually piss-easy to beat.

    But winning a Sonic game isn't really the point. Most reviewers don't see it that way, and that perceived lack of replayablility is what hurt Generations scores more than anything. A Mario game is, more than anything, about winning. Finding all the MacGuffins, beating all the stages, getting to the end, saving the girl. Mario, and most other comparable platform games from Kirby to Donkey Kong to Rayman tend to have way, WAY more levels than Sonic typically does. They do that by re-using art assets, enemies and music in different ways in each level.

    Sonic, however, has never strayed away from making each level its own world. With the exception of a few of the 3D titles, every single zone has its completely unique tropes, badniks, music and gimmicks that DON'T get reused anywhere else. Sonic games are easy to win, but difficult to master. Unfortunately for these reviewers, mastering the levels, finding the quickest or most rewarding paths, being able to show off your skills... that's where the majority of Sonic's replayability lies. Not in winning, but at getting AMAZING at the game.

    The way Sonic is reviewed would be like going through Guitar Hero on easy mode, beating it once, and reviewing the game based on THAT experience. Sonic, especially modern Sonic in Generations, does have a very high skill curve, and until you work your way up it, you're going to go flying into pits and slamming into enemies sometimes. It'll be frustrating, and that's not something every gamer wants to push through.