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Sonic 4: Episode 2 Discussion

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Chimpo, Dec 29, 2011.

  1. Nova


    It looks a bit more freeform than Episode 1, but nowhere near as much as the classics if you ask me. A particular level near the end looks a bit linear as there are dash pads everywhere that keep you travelling along mostly at the same speed, but it still manages to seem better than the previous attempt. As I haven't played it, I can't really comment - but from the looks of it, it doesn't look like a game that's going to have the same kind of replay value that the classic games had.

    Secrets, though? I'm sure there's going to be a few, I haven't really noticed any but then, I've only really watched the levels once each on YouTube and the people playing weren't discovering any.
  2. Eric Wright

    Eric Wright

    Born into this. Oldbie
    Okay so I've finally played Episode 2... they fixed a lot of the handling problems...


    fucking SERIOUSLY. If you're on flat ground, running at full speed, and you tap the Down button to roll, he just comes to a fucking stop

    - Still don't have ANY rolling momentum WHATSOEVER
    - you get more acceleration when running UPHILL than running DOWNhill
    - there's no variable rebound intensity when bouncing off enemies/boxes
    - bumpers and springs, bumpers and springs everywhere.

    what is so hard about this???

    Edit: (and the music is still awful)


    I've always theorized it's an issue with 3D models and non-sprite physics, HD collision detection, ect. ect. that leads to our rolling woes. One can't directly port genesis physics without going back to sprites, and I'd guess recreating them may be harder in 2.5D when slopes have extra "mass".

    This is why 3D rendered Sonic titles have so many scripted/automated segments like generations did with spring physics. I fear that without at least partial scripting, you'd never get a 3D rendered engine to properly make 2D gameplay at all. I do, however, believe you can get pretty close approximations, but Sonic genesis Sonic physics are a LOT more complicated than 2D Mario/Donkey Kong Country physics.
  4. nicko


    Look Alike
    Not to sure if this should be in a spoiler but anyway.

    I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but I am almost sure the sound effects given to metal sonic in Episode Metal are the same as the ones given to him in SADX.
  5. Eric Wright

    Eric Wright

    Born into this. Oldbie
    BULLshit, they could do it if they fucking tried.

    They're too busy shoehorning in shit like homing attack, air-dashing, and instant-contact bumpers because they don't give a fuck about the original gameplay mechanics. It's a simple matter of programming gravity and mass that applies to Sonic as an interactive object. There are plenty of other games out there that have "weighted-ball-rolling-on-a-hill" mechanics, there's absolutely no reason they couldn't accomplish it with this game unless they simply didn't want to.

    For the longest time, the Sonic series has steered sonic away from his signature rolling abilities and forced you to just fucking RUN everywhere. It started with Adventure (which, ironically had the best 3d Sonic rolling mechanics of any of the 3d games, even if they never gave it a real purpose), made it worse in Adventure 2, you almost never rolled in Heroes except for the partner attack moves... none of it in 2006, Unleashed, or Colors. They have systematically stripped him from one of the things that defined his games and separated them from other platformers from the era. Yeah, the Advance games had relatively decent gameplay mechanics, but by the 3rd game, it was just as irrelevant as the 3d titles, and it was again all but useless in Rush.

    What makes it worse is that Sonic 4 is supposed to be a continuation of the original, traditional formula, and they couldn't have butchered it worse. Jesus christ, even Generations' classic gameplay was better even though it still had obvious flaws.

    There's something larger going on behind all of this, and I think we as fans should be insulted.
  6. Andrew75


    Technical Artist Member
    Project AXSX(Sonic Xtreme) + Misc Projects
    Classic 2D Sonic physics can make it in a 3D world.
  7. Sparks


    Sondro Gomez / Kyle & Lucy
    Various fan game projects and engines have shown that an engine with physics akin to the Genesis games is possible in a 2.5D environment using 3D models.

    edit: Not trying to say fan games are superior to SEGAs current work, just noting that the possibility of Genesis physics in a 2.5D environment does exist.
  8. Knucklez


    I love 2B 'n' ass. Member
    I couldn't have said it better myself. Either they're simply fucking with us on purpose, or they're that fucking stupid. I don't know.

    It still doesn't change the fact that certain people give them too much credit for what they did get right in Episode 2, despite the glaring flaws still present throughout the game.
  9. Blivsey


    Charismatic Sonicaholic Member
    Frankly? I feel insulted reading comments saying that SEGA has learned nothing when they very clearly have (I humbly remind you how much worse it was in Ep1). Not using the "baby steps" excuse, not saying "dude, get a life". I'm saying "dude, chill." It's like this one failure with the rolling mechanic instantly besmirches the Sonic name, rapes children across the land and brings about early armageddon. When I say it is not that bad, I will accept the fact that the rolling needs work/overhauling. But from what I have seen, it's not something to cry rebellion about. This is what we call hyperbole.

    tl;dr Yes, your complaint is valid. No, you are not reacting in a mature way. You are, let's say, screaming about a scratch on the car.

    Also, what's with the hate for dying ducks? At least ducks aren't as cute as cats. And to think they sacrificed their lives to make Oil Desert 2, one of my favorite level themes from the game? *salutes*
  10. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Working on my art!
    If the fact that sega doesn't give a rats ass about rolling isn't apparent by now then you are blind. They don't know how to make a classic game anymore because the people on these teams have never done anything like it. Dimps actually almost got the physics right in generations 3ds though.

    Sonics about boost boost boost now, not rolling around at the speed of sound. They're starting to learn how to do classic stuff again, but it's a learning process for them, and seeing how long it took to make a 3d sonic gameplay that people actually liked, it's gonna take a while for sonic to relearn proper rolling. This is sega/sonic team/dimps we're talking about here, not a competent developer. It's like a little league event. Everyone gets a trophy and a hug so there feelings aren't hurt, but Sega's batting like .02. But they got a hit last game so everyone is super excited for them
  11. Joltanz Mantis

    Joltanz Mantis

    ! Member
    Quebec, Canada
    I sing
    The only reason they got the physics right is that they replicated Classic GHZ CNZ MHZ 1:1. They COULDN'T mess that up. Notice how afterwards Sonic gets the Homing Attack and how the levels
    become unoriginal and boring, without decent (or no) remixes. Oh, and blandness. It sure feels like Blitz Sonic in there.

    Sonic has changed. (in Solid Snake's voice)

    Rolling was useless in Generations, AND the Spin Dash was free boost. For the air, Fire Shield. The only thing which came back was the character model, the art, and bits and pieces of layout.
    I think we need Taxman to join Sonic Team.
  12. SteelBrush


    603e Member
    the home of spotted dick, Devon
    Tramadol, Tamazepam and finding a reason to exist.
    A true classic style new Sonic game is never going to happen under the current Sonic Team leadership. Iizuka doesn't care for it and quite obviously has little understanding of just what made classic Sonic so appealing, this comes across clearly when he is interviewed on the subject.
  13. steveswede


    Ask my hand
    Fighting against the Unitary State of Europe
    It would be better if Taxman had his own team with members that actually give a fuck and start a retro Sonic team separate to the current members while they continue doing their Sonic the driving game hedgehog games. It's more than just getting the physics right, the fresh and original content is just as important.
  14. Eric Wright

    Eric Wright

    Born into this. Oldbie
    And that's part of the irony, because they could most certainly add new features and spruce things up- as long as it was applied appropriately across the entire game.

    Sonic 2:
    - higher top speed
    - spin dash

    The levels were build to allow the player to take better advantage of the snappier control and speed.
    The levels were designed around the original core gameplay mechanics but allowed the spin dash to be used with moderate risk involved, if you knew how to plan your route and reaction in advance. There was never anything that just let you spin dash with disregard or anything that relied solely on the new ability.

    Sonic 3 & Knuckles:
    - insta shield
    - elemental shields
    - Tails can fly/swim
    - knuckles can climb/glide

    The insta-shield allowed you to ninja your way past enemy attacks and projectiles, land attacks on bosses if you were brave enough to take a risk (the lumberjack miniboss in Mushroom Valley is a perfect example, you can take him out while attacking him with the insta shield right through his jet flame).
    The elemental shields all gave you a small advantage, but simultaneously created further obstacle.
    The lightning shield gave you a double jump to get up higher, but you had to pay more attention to where you would land afterward.
    THe fire shield gave you a brief air dash but you immediately lost the momentum (unless you did it right along the ground and continued running/rolling).
    Both of these were also instantly taken away if you touched water, which was present in a significant number of the levels.
    The Water shield let you breathe underwater, and increased your rebound from enemies/boxes substantially, but didn't offer you any boost in lateral progress, as it always made you come straight down on your double jump.
    Tails' flight/swimming was limited; you were never forced to fly or swim unless you traversed your way to one of the exclusive paths. The exclusive paths often had their own specific trials to tackle (Tails' path in Marble Garden was a fucking gauntlet).
    Knuckles could climb and reach higher areas, but it typically offered no speed advantage... There were also often many walls that his lower jump-height restricted him from latching onto.
    His gliding was very convenient for tackling enemies, gaining vertical height off attacking an enemy/box, but whenever you came out of a glide, you always stopped dead when you landed, and started running from zero (unless you landed on a platform or bridge or something with different ground characteristics, but whatever)

    In all the different paths and new opportunities in Sonic 3, they built the levels to challenge and oppose those new updates.

    In Sonic 4, they've made no effort to do anything to make the homing attack something new and inclusive- you just use it everywhere without even having to think about it. The level designs of episode 2 look a little more interesting and possibly offer more exploration than episode 1, but they're still clunky and uninspired.

    You can't even intelligently maintain control over sonic because if you try to jump at the edge of a platform or ledge, but accidentally press it too late- you instantly air dash into fucking oblivion somewhere. You should only be able to air dash if you're doing it after a jump.
    You can't break out of loops or dash areas because of the scripted running mechanics.

    There's just no attention to detail from a technical platforming perspective in Sonic 4. They have a general grasp of what THEY think a Sonic game "should be;" jump here, loop here, break this, bounce bounce bounce... but none of it has any beauty or ingenuity. The guys who made the original games weren't just cobbling shit together... hell, all the different Sonic 2 beta roms should be a PRIME example about how particular they were with building levels. Emerald hill, we've seen how many different builds of it by this point? I'm not saying they haven't spent time trying to tweak Sonic 4 to get it "right," but there's still no sense of continuity, they don't know how to make the game an engaging experience.
  15. Joltanz Mantis

    Joltanz Mantis

    ! Member
    Quebec, Canada
    I sing
    Well, to do that, they should try to get SOA to let them become the Sonic Team of NA / EU.
    We don't want Sonic 2HD speed, so if they could actually get hired, we could have a decent and OFFICIAL (no cease and desist plz) Sonic game every say, 2 1/2 - 3 years.
    I agree with him getting his own team, as long as it's official.
  16. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Working on my art!
    If Sega did Sonic similar as to how Activision does CoD, I would be ok with that. Sonic Team Jp makes a Sonic game every 2 years or so using Modern Sonic gameplay. A new Taxman based team would make a new 2D Sonic game every 2 years or so. Dimps is gone.

    Everyone wins.
  17. Guess Who

    Guess Who

    It's a miracle! Oldbie
    "Sonic 4 doesn't live up to the classics" and "Taxman should make new Sonic games" are both incredibly interesting and refreshing opinions. I'm glad you guys are bringing new ideas to the table instead of ranting on about the same tired shit for two years. This is really the kind of discussion we need at Retro, right here.
  18. steveswede


    Ask my hand
    Fighting against the Unitary State of Europe
    Really? I've been bleating on about having two teams to do separate genres of Sonic games for ages and in all honesty I would love to stop bitchin about physics and new content. But I have my mission and I plan to succeed so we can all be happy. ;)


    (I may have missed the sarcasm but I'm cool for making a fool of myself).
  19. What is there left? It's obvious there are some design philsophies that many of us disagree with from Dimps. We can't just invent new things to bitch about.
  20. Steven M

    Steven M

    Passively-aggressively complaining about other people complaining is productive because