don't click here

Sonic 3: D.A. Garden Edition

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by D.A. Garden, Oct 19, 2015.

  1. flamewing


    Emerald Hunter Tech Member
    Sonic Classic Heroes; Sonic 2 Special Stage Editor; Sonic 3&K Heroes (on hold)
    Solid blocks can't crush you if you have any vertical speed, and won't even push you down if you are moving down. So stand at the lowest part of the ground and inch your way up as the crusher moves down to enter terrain and you should be able to do it in a few tries.
  2. redhotsonic


    Also known as RHS Tech Member
    United Kingdom
    The stream may still be happening, but possibly later this evening or tomorrow. Hopefully we'll keep you posted, but I am now not going to be involved with the stream as things have come up. So, for my last Let's Try video:

  3. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    Sonic CD's Sound Test Member
    Thanks for the info, flamewing. I'll look into fixing it. Again, I'm trying to fix as many issues as possible for a bug-fix release in the future.
  4. I encountered a game breaking bug in Marble Garden Zone Act 1:


    Normally there's a top in this area, but the second I fell down, Tails fell down onto it and it flew off the screen. I can't run off the screen to make the top respawn, so I'm stuck here until time runs out.
  5. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    Sonic CD's Sound Test Member
    True Dude:

    I've removed the breakable wall to the right. I was going to replace it with a spin-breakable one, but they can't be broken with the top.
  6. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    no reverse gear Wiki Sysop
    Northumberland, UK
    steamboat wiki
    This is a nifty hack, but it's true that there are far too many occasions where enemy placement is cheap. I think some of the early Sonic 3 levels suffer the most in this regard.

    The only major but I came across in a quick playthrough with Sonic and Tails is that the first ridable block in Ice Cap Act 1 didn't destroy the wall - it went through it, leaving Sonic and Tails to forever slide downwards. I ended up clipping through by doing that vertical camera scrolling glitch (the one caused by holding up or down).

    It doesn't flow as well as vanilla Sonic 3K but I suppose that's to be expected. Could have used some subtle palette changes here and there perhaps too - not so much that it becomes a brand new zone, but enough to say "hey, this is different".
  7. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    Sonic CD's Sound Test Member
    Black Squirrel:

    The Icecap breakable wall sometimes has this issue due to the camera and the vertical wrapping. However, you can just go back and get another block, as they do respawn. It's not the best solution in the world, but you shouldn't have to use a glitch to get passed. I did make sure of this.

    I keep hearing, on occassion, about cheap enemy placement. I agree that Hydrocity is affected by this, where I have toned down the placement lightly for the bug-fix version, to be released later. After watching a whole stream yesterday from someone I trust, I can't see where else this applies. If you could give me some examples, that would be helpful. I will say this; S3K didn't have the fairest enemy placement either, so this is partly to be expected.

    Your comment on flow seems a bit strange, as I never intended the levels to feel like the original S3K. I've had quite a few people say they flow quite nicely, whereas others have said they deviate from S3K too much and as such, don't feel right. In my opinion, they use a mixture of Sonic 1's layout style and my own ideas, as this is what I have experience with. The problem is, what works for a lot of people doesn't work for a lot of other people, and I keep getting mixed messages. There really is no pleasing some people.

    Also, I did originally have some subtle palette changes in place, but S3K causes more issues that not when you mess with them. I left my Sandopolis Act 1 and IceCap Act 2 palette changes in place, but most others eithe rhad issues or I wasn't happy with them. I apologise that I couldn't implement more.
  8. MarkeyJester


    Original, No substitute Resident Jester
    I played this hack, live, in a full stream, and I'm glad that I voted it the winner (and the best layout/object placement hack) for the public voting, because in my mind, it sure deserves it (Don't ask me what the actual trophy names are, I haven't a clue).

    There is only one real complaint that I would direct to you, and that's that the object enemy placement can at times break flow. I cannot for the life of me tell you where though, because the hack felt so natural to play, it often escaped my mind that I was actually playing a hack, and not some alternate version of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. The thing is, Sonic 3 & Knuckles had its fair share of bad enemy placement that would break the flow of the game, unfortunately, we often don't realise this given that we know the layout by heart. I won't lie though, there are more flow breakages here than in the original by comparison, but it didn't stop me from enjoying it. Playing as Sonic, and then Knuckles, took up a full 6 hours of playtime.

    I consider this game to be for the "advanced" players of Sonic 3 & Knuckles, there were things that you had done that I think you were able to get away with, that Sonic Team would probably had not been permitted to do. Such as trapping the playing in a loop in Marble Garden Zone, until they deliberately jumped from the twisting vertical wall. A normal player who has never played Sonic before would never have considered it, but advanced players saw right through it in time. And speaking of loops, there were a fair amount of clever ones in various stages, Marble Garden Zone and Launch Base Zone come to mind, where you'd destroy a wall switching device, and you'd continue and end up back to where you were previously, but with the walls changed to navigate further. This of all things made the levels feel longer and complex compared to the original. Something of which I enjoyed.

    The clever use of objects in ways they were not intended, is another thing I can pin point. It's like the rising pillars in Ice Cap Zone, if you stand on them, they rise and crush you in the ceiling, but you actually used it as a platform to navigate the player up to a higher path in the level. I am also GOD DAMN PLEASED, that you removed those awful spiral helter skelter platform navigation thingies from Flying Battery Zone, with exception to the very small ones in the hallways. I never realised how well they slowed the game down, having to wait is just stupid. With that in mind, I'm also glad that the lower outside bottomless pits are gone. I really enjoyed this level the most, in normal Sonic 3 & Knuckles, I would have voted this one of the worst levels to play, but here, I actually found this to be the most enjoyable! I think I'd be safe in saying that it is now my most favourite level~

    Additionally, I'm kicking myself for the Sonic 1 Invincible theme. Being Super Sonic was an experience I would have preferred not to have endured with the theme playing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and IT JUST WON'T STOP... Another complaint, but not one I can direct at you, are the bosses, I really wished that they were different. But that's not your fault, you never promised it after all. If I had to be honest of course, I found myself not paying much attention near the end, since not much stuck out as odd, it was... well... ...too professional to have noticed. It might have been me though, I was way overdue for sleep after all.

    One word to sum this game up; "Advanced"
  9. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    Sonic CD's Sound Test Member
    Update: Link removed due to release of Version 1.02.
    See here for Version 1.02 and change log:

    This version fixes many issues; not limited to the following:

    • Edited badnik placement in Hydrocity Zone Act 1 and 2. This should help with unfair placement that some people have mentioned.
    • Marble Garden Zone Act 2 adjustment for Sonic/Tails. This should remove the Special Stage tally randomly showing up (Stupid scripted scenes).
    • Special Stage 3 edited. This removes the issue of freezing when a particular blue sphere is touched.
    • Hydrocity Zone Act 1 adjustment for Knuckles. This stops Knuckles getting stuck in a wall at the start.
    • IceCap Zone Act 2 adjustment for Knuckles. This should stop getting stuck on the wrong path before the 2 loops.
    • Launch Base Zone Act 2 adjustment. This is to stop Knuckles accessing Sonic/Tails path.
    • Sky Sanctuary Zone adjustment. This should remove the garbled Egg Robo badnik sprites.
    • Marble Garden Zone Act 1 adjustment. Removed a breakable wall that could cause a soft-lock.
    • Lava Reef Zone Act 2 adjustment. Moved the position of a big ring that caused a monitor to load garbled graphics.
    • Mushroom Hill Zone Act 1 adjustment. Changed path swapper which caused issues with a loop.
    • Hydrocity Zone Act 2 adjustment. Stopped Knuckles accessing Sonic's path and changed path-separating area.
    There may also be some other issues that I have fixed, but I can't remember them off of the top of my head.

    Anyhow, I have now chosen to cease working on the project. If there are any more issues, then I apologise, but they will not be fixed.
    Thanks again to everybody that helped with the project and, again, I hope you have fun with it.
  10. Well, too bad you won't fix it, I currently found a random gimmick object leaved in Carnival Night. Anyway, it's nice you fixed the bugs.
  11. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    Sonic CD's Sound Test Member
    I don't really understand your post, but could you tell me anyway? It would be nice to know.
  12. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Working on my art!
    Just out of curiosity, any chance on releasing a version of this with your original palette edits? I did see that you said you were done with the game, I simply thought I'd ask (That and Eggrobo sprites for the Flying Battery Act 2 boss would be swell). These are just aesthetics though. The game's brilliant, good work and thanks for the bug fixes.
  13. That's what I meant:

    Sorry, I didn't not know exactly how I would call this object.

    And I really have same thought with Dark Sonic on a release with some palette edits (though, I don't think all levels need have palette edited).
  14. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    Sonic CD's Sound Test Member
    Dark Sonic:
    Unfortunately, I don't have the original palettes any more, so it's out of the question. I'm sorry about that.
    Also, regarding Flying Battery, the only sprites that currently exist are from Sonic 3 Complete, and while that hack fixes the issue, I never intended to fix any issues from the original S3K that weren't layout related.

    Well, I found the area that you are on about, and it seems I placed an object 48 20 (Vacuum tube), instead of an object 4B 20 (Diagonal wall spring). I should have noticed that, but unfortunately I didn't. My apologies. All I can do is recommend you avoid the first 2 diagonal springs in that area. Sorry.

    While I may have finished working on it, I am still interested in any issues that still persist. They may not be fixed in future, but it does allow me to see what I may have overlooked, so that I don't make the same mistakes in future.
  15. LordOfSquad


    bobs over baghdad Member
    Winnipeg, MB
    making cool music no one gives a shit about
    I think technical issues are keeping him from adding new palettes. S3 is a bitch to work with in that regard, I believe several palettes are hardcoded into the game somehow and make simply editing them a real nightmare. I could be wrong, but that's my recollection from hazy memories of trying to edit the palettes myself many many many many many moons ago. I'm fairly certain a tech member could help make it work if they wanted, but it's DA's hack and he seems to be done with it. It's still a fantastic piece of work, palettes or no.

    NINJA EDIT: Well, there you have it folks. From the man himself.
  16. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Working on my art!
    Ok, that makes sense. Thanks for responding. I really do like this hack as it is though, so no harm done.
  17. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    Sonic CD's Sound Test Member
    I know I said I was done, and that no more releases were coming, but I left in quite a few issues by mistake that could have easily been rectified.
    For that reason, I am updating Sonic 3: D.A. Garden Edition to Version 1.02.
    Here is the new link:

    Please find a list of changes below:

    • Added additional bridge poles to Angel Island Zone Act 2 boss areas.
    • Replaced incorrectly placed vacuum tube with diagonal spring in Carnival Night Zone Act 1.
    • Launch Base Zone Act 1 Starpost ID changed for Knuckles so it isn't already flashing.
    • Object added to a Big Ring room in Lava Reef Zone Act 2 to stop getting stuck in the floor.
    • Adjusted floor-based switches in Lava Reef Zone Act 2 so that they aren't in the floor.
    • Changed positions of a switch and invincibility monitor, and added 2 ring monitors in Lava Reef Zone Act 2.
    • Switched the invincibility track (and subsequently, Super/Hyper forms) back to the default Sonic 3 & Knuckles track.
      (The replacement was more a test of patience than the original. My apologies.)
    I wasn't planning on another updated release, but as there were quite a few things I missed after Version 1.01, I felt it best to go back and fix them.
    Thanks again for everyone's continued support with this project.
  18. RazoZen



    This is one of the best Sonic hacks I ever played. The quality of the new levels are on par with original ones. It felt like playing Sonic 3 & Knuckles in childhood.

    P.S.: There is a funny glitch in the staff roll. It should be fixed.
  19. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    Sonic CD's Sound Test Member
    The video appears to still be processing, so I can't currently watch it. I'll wait, of course.

    Also, before watching the video, I have to ask about the staff roll glitch you mentioned:
    Do the graphics garble half way through the credits text scroll? If so, this is an issue that I have encountered a small amount of times, but I don't know what causes it, nor can I replicate it successfully. It appears to be an issue that still eludes me. I will however try to find out what causes it, and when I do, fix it.
  20. RazoZen


    Yes. It happened many times while I was practicing for the walkthrough.