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Sonic 3 Complete

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. Josh

    Josh

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    I noticed two little pixels underneath the ring counter in the slot machine bonus:

    [​IMG]

    I also grabbed a savestate if you need that. Not sure when they showed up or what triggered them, or if they're supposed to be there. I did get a continue. This was using the standard release with no patches.
     
  2. Ravenfreak

    Ravenfreak

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    Believe it or not Josh, that little glitch appears in Sonic 3K as well. I can't recall if this glitch occurs when playing Sonic and Knuckles alone though... Still I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been addressed in this hack, but I guess it's tiny and can go unnoticeable...
     
  3. redquebec

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    Is Tiddles still working on it? It's been a long time we saw him in the forums.
     
  4. JojHeywood

    JojHeywood

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    Most people usually hold their releases/updates for the hacking contest so that they've accumulated a bunch of different changes, I'm not saying Tiddles has done this but it's one of the many explanations as to why S3C hasn't updated in the last few months.
     
  5. Tiddles

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    Hi folks. Still alive.

    I've been working on little bits on and off, but overall, not a huge amount has changed since the last release at this point. There are some minor tweaks and features in place, and a few bugfixes here and there (including two original-game issues that have been bothering me for a long time: the weird music hitch and palette flash when the waterline scrolls into view quickly, and a potential sound-related hang around the waterline that was reported a few times in CNZ) and some pretty nice spritey stuff. I also seem to have accidentally fixed that thing where smashing too many monitors in debug would corrupt RAM and reset you into the wrong game, which is a nice bonus. Oh, and I finally fixed that S2-3 issue I've never really seen anyone complain about where spindashing right next to a monitor will uncurl you after it smashes (which turns out pretty definitely to be an oversight, in spite of looking specific enough to maybe have been deliberate).

    So there should be another release at some point, but I wouldn't expect it to be particularly soon or particularly game-changing compared to the previous couple.

    Obviously an "improvement" hack has a limited shelf life before the remaining possible relevant improvements reach a point of diminishing returns in terms of work/time/reward ratio, and with FBZ done, I personally think we're beyond that mark. I'm (obviously) among the crowd that would love to have a "perfect" Sonic 3, but we have to accept that not everything can be perfected with a limited amount of time and skill and obviously limited hardware, but also the need, with a project like this, to keep the original game fundamentally stable and not to introduce new bugs or coincidentally different behaviour where possible. That has always been the way I've tried to work, and I think it's that focus on stability and polish that has made the hack successful rather than any of the particular changes themselves.

    In that sense, I hope what's out there is sufficient - I think, with the latest version, we managed to put something out there that really covers the vast majority of the bases in terms of what a complete (MD-bound) Sonic 3 should be, without introducing any notable problems I'm aware of that the original didn't also have. So I hope nobody is desperately refreshing the Wiki page in search of something that it just wouldn't be any good without, because unfortunately, it's not going to suddenly change in the very near future!

    When I read that back, it sounds like it's all over, but that isn't really what I intend - as I say, there are things that are done, things I intend to do, and those should all get out there at some point. I guess I just want to manage any expectations that I've been chained to a desk doing some huge update that should be here any day now - nothing huge, nothing soon, that's really the point.

    Well, now I've dampened spirits, let's answer a few questions. I do want to reiterate one thing - I'm sorry if I don't always respond to questions here or by e-mail quickly or at all (and if I skipped responding again here). I've said before that I don't generally respond to feature and bugfix requests, and that's for a few reasons. First and foremost, I don't always know how technically feasible something will be, or how much work would be involved, and the picture I have of that can change dramatically if I find a complication I wasn't aware of, or on the other hand, if I suddenly come to understand something that makes another thing much less complicated. Secondly, I often change my mind for all sorts of reasons - there are things I would have wanted to do at the beginning that I wouldn't do now (and that includes disagreeing with the odd default option here and there that remains in place for consistency), and there are suggestions I've ended up taking on board later that I initially didn't agree with. There are other reasons too, not least the fact that once I do start writing, I can't seem to stop (this post really wasn't meant to be an essay when I started it, you know). So don't think I am ignoring you! I do read things and consider them and I appreciate all suggestions and feedback. (I actually thought I was probably about done with what I wanted to do in 2009 when I first released it, and the interest and discussion that's come since has been a huge influence on continuing at all and the directions that were taken.)

    Anyway:

    There is at least one more where it's possible to do this, for what it's worth. You can also do that as Sonic by spindashing left and jumping in there. Basically there's just a plane switcher that's slightly too high, so you can get under it. It's a simple enough fix, I just hate object layout editing because I have to change up to four layouts to fix any one thing thanks to all the different versions (and also because the method to make Sonic 3 layouts for Knuckles is this idiot savant concoction I put together back in the days before the new disassembly where I was deliberately sticking to an unmodified Sonic 3 ROM, so it does all kinds of untidy in-place layout patching instead of just including working, converted layouts, and that really needs unpicking at some point to make the thing more manageable).

    I can confirm that I am not theologically opposed to these ideas, though see all of the above regarding working principles and deliberately sparse answers to feedback. Both have been requested before; the former would certainly be nice, but I'm not desperately interested in the amount of extra headache needed for the latter - I actually asked if anyone wanted this when I first put the green sock fixes in, and so far, as I recall, two people in three years have expressed any desire, so the interest and effort checks aren't going too well on that one I'm afraid.

    Yeeeeah, I have to admit this is kind of crappy, sorry.

    The most requested feature by far from the last release in particular was more fine-grained options for some of this stuff, so I do hope to address that, and that in turn should address this. That said, what's clear from having seen a few videos of folks using the options menu is that it's already ridiculously confusing in terms of what all these things do, so I'm hoping my cunning plan will somewhat address both issues at once; even so, I think it's pretty clear we need to do some kind of online manual for the options menu too at some point.

    To be fair though, you don't have to turn super, you can just make him fly while you're charging a peelout. What, you didn't actually want to be able to catch him, did you?

    In general, I don't tend to reuse 3C beta content, other than where it just happens to really fill a gap in terms of making things more like the original Sonic 3, such as the Hidden Palace fight theme selection or the credits medley. You could argue that all of Sonic 3 is a beta of S3&K, but I think there's a big difference between something that was signed off for release and the WIP stuff in between.

    Of course, by that logic, we have no business moving Flying Battery either, so you know. I am flighty and unpredictable, which is why talking a lot about what I intend or don't intend can be a bit fruitless!

    That's pretty interesting actually, I never spotted that side effect. The "Sonic 2" AI Tails simulation doesn't actually change as much as it should do be accurate; I only did a minimal amount of stuff to change things that obviously didn't look right, and I suspect the bit that's responsible here is the change (back) in how he lands from AI flight, as he wasn't hovering uselessly above slight puddles like his dumb(er)ass S2 self would without it.

    I think your other points were addressed. I don't remember having fixed this one, but I've done some tweaking to level limits to fix some of these kinds of issues, and I will hopefully address this one too, assuming I haven't to date.

    Yes, sorry, thanks for your files - haven't done anything with them yet, but I would like to look at it and play with things at some point.

    Yeah, this original S3&K issue has come up a few times - I actually worried myself when I first noticed it as I assumed it was something I'd broken! As I recall, it's because the space assigned for mappings in VRAM overwrites the last tile of the HUD, so you have some mappings data sneaking into the corner. On the face of it, that's a very easy fix, but it's also one that makes me a bit queasy in terms of how easy it would be to introduce another subtle bug in one place or another, depending on the method.

    I've never really entered the hacking contest for a couple of reasons. Most importantly, working towards a specific time has never really worked out for me, particularly given that, as I mentioned before, one of the most important features of this hack is that it's solid and not too rushed, even if unspectacular as a result. That unspectacular factor also kind of leads into the other reason, which is that I can never really think of a trophy this thing should be in the running for! I've always thought the hacking contest tends to favour original work much more than just tightening some nuts and bolts like S3C does. And that's fine, by the way - you don't do something like this to win best of show, and I love seeing some of the cool stuff people come up with, which really lends itself better to showing off than "Hey look, it's Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but that one frame glitch where the palette went wrong didn't happen".
     
  6. Dark Sonic

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    Well Tiddles, if it's worth anything, this is probably my favorite hack out there. It fixes what I thought was near perfection already and makes it, well, perfection. It's the definitive Sonic 3 in my book. Even if Taxman releases a Sonic 3 iOS, I don't know what features he could add at this point that'd outshine this hack besides wide screen mode and rings no longer overwriting the music in Sky Sanctuary.

    Certainly won't have Sonic 2 sprite mode.
     
  7. RetroKoH

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    Let's see... graphical enhancements to the Special stage and Slot Machine stage background, smooth ring rotation, glowing rings that don't affect colors of other objects, certain objects that rotate, actually rotating... some flickering sprites becoming transparent... the shoddy collision with tiles being less shoddy. Fewer possibilities of glitching with Hyper Sonic... which unbreaks any iteration of Sonic 3, about 99%.

    While this is definitely the premier Sonic 3 hack on Retro... don't underestimate what Taxman can do to Sonic 3. Prime reason being its not a hack.
     
  8. MastaSys

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    Just a little sugestion.

    Since there is an option for the classic themes, how about an option to make the 1st and 2nd Sky Sanctuary bosses play their original boss theme from Sonic 1 & 2 to complete the throwback?
    It worked well in Sonic Advance.
     
  9. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    Those themes with the S3K Sound Driver... Eargasmic.
     
  10. Ell678

    Ell678

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    Not sure if this has been posted before, but I found an issue in Carnival Night Zone Act 2. I bubble bounced into the cannon at the end, and Sonic kept getting fired vertically, coming down, getting fired again, and again, and again. The ship was continually flying past, and eventually, it did progress to the next level. Still strange though.
     
  11. Willie

    Willie

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    Back in 2012, I suggested the option to turn the time limit off. I don't know how difficult it would be to make it an option, but someone on Retro once released a rom hack that got rid of the time limit altogether, so hopefully including it wouldn't be too difficult. And for a significantly more ambitious idea that would require a ton of work, have much of the sprites for Tails redone. I hate how his art is so inconsistent compared to Sonic and Knuckles because of Sonic Team's laziness. If you are open minded to the idea of replacing the sprites for Tails or including his new sprites as an option, I will highly consider attempting a redone version of his sprites. Worst case scenario, if my attempts aren't good enough, someone could modify mine to make them good enough for the project or mine could be scrapped altogether. And hell, if mine aren't good enough, maybe I could attempt my own rom hack or find someone else who would use my sprites for their rom hack.
     
  12. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    Might do an option for this at some point, yeah - would be a nice bit of nostalgia.

    I thought I'd fixed all those sort of issues, but it might not be fixed in any released version. I bubble bounced successfully into the cannon in my development version, so if that's a consistent problem, then it has been fixed.

    Casual mode already prevents timer-related deaths (and consequently removes the 500K time bonus for finishing at 9:59); in the future, I want to split up the casual options a bit, so this might yet end up being a separate option.

    I'm definitely interested in this, and I like what you've done in the TGC S3 video thread. Such a significant change would have to be optional, which means I'd have to split the Sonic and Tails patches; this involves some extra complications I need to resolve at some point anyway. But most importantly, my graphics guys seem to have died, and I just don't have the patience to build all the player sprite mappings! If you're handy with SonMapEd or similar, or know someone with those skills, I'd be happy to take an alternative set of graphics of sufficient quality; as a general rule of thumb, if it can be dropped into the Git S3&K disassembly and builds OK, I'll be able to take it. I can even (privately) supply our current tidied up and improved Tails files as a starting point or reference if you take it that far.
     
  13. Willie

    Willie

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    Ah. The time limit is the only thing I would want changed in terms of difficulty, so casual mode has never interested me. If you made the time limit a separate option, that would be fantastic.

    I've never used SonMapEd or have done any rom hacking before, but I'm willing to try to learn those programs. I think I'll attempt to edit more Tails sprites soon to get an idea of how difficult it would be to redo most of his sprites. If you want to send me the improved Tails sprites your team has worked on, feel free to send them to me via private messaging on Retro or I could message you my email address if you prefer going that route. I wouldn't show any of those sprites to the public without your permission.
     
  14. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXyfis9PN-U

    Don't know how this is even done, but is this fixed? He releases spindash while in the tube and somehow makes Tails a ghost...
     
  15. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

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    1. If any options (such as the time limit being discussed) can be toggled, could the controls possibly have the camera mode separated? I'd rather use the max control option but with the 1993 SCD camera, as I dislike CD style spindashing and would rather be able to fly as Tails and use the insta-shield as Sonic without giving up the CD camera.

    2. May I help out with the Tails sprites? I consider myself to be a decent pixel artist. It was already too late for me when I asked to help with the classic style Sonic sprites, and I frankly wouldn't have been able to do the PC music very well (Valleybell did a great job on it), but I still wish to meaningfully contribute in some way.

    I've already done a bit of work on WAC's original proof-of-concept piece as I have a slightly different approach. To the left are all of my modifications, to the right is my version with WAC's original head unchanged.

    [​IMG]

    Another update, my new iteration is on the left, compared to my previous iteration on the right.

    [​IMG]

    On another note: I wonder if it would be acceptable to make the walking cycle have the head bob left and right as opposed to up and down. Tails always looked rather derpy with the vertical head bobbing in my opinion, and it's wildly inconsistent with Sonic (throughout all games) and Knuckles' walk animations. For an example of the left/right bob, play Tails Adventure and use the sprinting shoes powerup. I think it looks a lot better to have Tails' head bob way while walking.

    3. I found a bug. I was playing as Tails in LBZ act 1, got hit and landed on one of those speed boosters, sending me along the ground in the idle standing frame. I have a savestate of this, and was using the following ROM config:

    Version 130810
    *Sonic 2 Sonic sprites
    *S1/2 monitors
    *Lives and continues on save screen
    *Remove continue progress HUD on slot machine
    *Pink Knuckles

    Savestate here: https://www.mediafire.com/?4vqk5km54jc9fb3
    To note, I am using Kega Fusion.
     
  16. Josh

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    Here's a bug that doesn't seem to be documented in the Wiki, and I've never seen anyone else mention it. I've known about it for so long that I basically never thought to mention it. I kind of like it, haha.

    Ice Cap Zone act 1 transitions to act 2 shortly after the swinging platform breaks, as you run out of the tunnel. However, if you charge up a spin dash or otherwise move quickly enough...

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Overlord

    Overlord

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    Sorry, there's so much filtering on that screenshot it's hard to see exactly what you're getting at...
     
  18. Ell678

    Ell678

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    I found a bug. In Death Egg Act 1, if you get hit by a wall missile while in the "engine room" the gravity screws up, and Sonic becomes uncontrollable. In fact, in Orkal's Death Egg glitches video, you can see it, at 1:45.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBSTnLW3h1s&list=UUNm9pAxkybUyHGxx1ItRUTw[/youtube]
     
  19. muteKi

    muteKi

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    The transition between Ice Cap 1 and 2 isn't quite immediate. Since it's loading an entire level's worth of data there's a bit of lag. You won't notice it unless you're going particularly quickly through it, such as with a well-timed spin dash or hyper Sonic's turbo boost. In the pic you can see garbage representing the fact that the start of act 2 hasn't really loaded yet.
     
  20. RetroKoH

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    I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that Ice Cap bug... WHY does it bring you to Act 2 before the boss???