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Sonic 3 Complete

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. TheInvisibleSun

    TheInvisibleSun

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    The Water

    I still would love to see this implemented in another hack eventually though.
     
  2. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

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    I've got another suggestion.
    I noticed if you go to a bonus stage from level select, your rings are preserved even if you restart the game with pause+A, but only if you go back into the bonus stage from the level select.
    It would be great if rings and powerups could be preserved from bonus stages to normal stages through level select.
     
  3. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    In some cases there are chunk layout differences, particularly MHZ1. I also think it's more questionable to use the ones from the S3C betas, particularly under the S3 banner - the S3 layouts are what was put together for the final release of S3, whereas the others are just as things were at some random points during development of the other half of the game - given the lack of anything in the released game's data, there's no real evidence to say these are things that might have made it out to the world. Though I keep meaning to check if the unfinished S3 MHZ layouts fit with the 0408 chunk layout.

    Making a Super palette not either look terrible itself or make other things look terrible with that is kind of a challenge, plus the fact that with the generally brighter tones in S3, I think the dark outline would end up sticking out a bit too much, and we also get into the game of having to maintain multiple sets based on notionally the same frames (it's trouble enough managing what's in there already sometimes!) And I'd need to rework the way the classic patches to stop sticking Sonic and Tails in the same boat, which may happen later anyway. I dunno. Always a tough call, that one, and in the end I think it might just be too much graft for too little return.

    I originally had this in my plan, but in the end, I made the decision that anything that completely changed between S1 and S2 was out as a classic option - recreating the common themes is as far as I wanted to go, or where do you stop? See also special stages, 2P results. It also raises interesting questions over what to do about a midboss theme; questions which feel like they could lead to menus in menus in menus before I could make everyone happy!

    I can't seem to reproduce this - using Regen on all four of those tracks and selecting individual channels, they all seem to be doing something. Bear in mind that in-level, you can get some nasty and seemingly persistent cutout from SFX, or it could be a stereo issue, which often sounds like parts have mysteriously gone missing (do you clearly hear each and every ring sound when collecting them in series?) If it's none of those things and you can still reproduce the issue, it would be helpful if you could get me your ROM and SRAM, and preferably a savestate where it's already acting up, and if possible, even a recording of what you hear so I can compare it.

    I've thought before that this would be nice too. I honestly don't know whether I'll get around to it, since it involves digging around in stuff that could lead to unexpected retention in other cases, but maybe if I ever get around to a retain-things-between-levels option, it should be an easy thing to tack on to that.
     
  4. Adding on to the pile of suggestions, is there any chance of being able to use the SCD 93 camera outside of the SCD 93 control mode? I'm one of those crazy people that like the extended camera but I wouldn't choose it at the cost of a gimped spindash and loss of double jump abilities.
     
  5. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

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    My line of thinking is that the 0408 proto is the closest thing we have to S3 'flavored' S&K. It's only 2 months after the released game, as opposed to 8 months, so it's at least somewhat reasonable to say if S3 were released with all zones that it would resemble the 0408 build closer, is it not?

    Might as well try, for research and curiosity's sake.

    Ahh, jeez, I didn't even think of that one. Super mode would no doubt present a problem if you tried reintroducing the dark red shade. The reason I suggested it was for consistency with S2 Sonic. No biggie since the classic style stuff is just an optional bonus anyway.
     
  6. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    Two months after release, perhaps, but I believe drx confirmed that the final code for Sonic 3 was built in November 1993.
     
  7. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

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    Holy shit, why did they wait so long? If they released it then it probably would have been even more successful, given holiday rush and all. I assumed it would have been a month old at most.

    Also, when did actual production (not preproduction) begin on the S&K levels? I heard it was shortly after S3 was done, but I've also heard that they were being produced parallel but on the backburner since they planned to split it to begin with.
     
  8. ValleyBell

    ValleyBell

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    Some of the instruments are questionable, yes. That's especially true for some of the earlier tracks I made. (I clearly improved over time and the last ports are better than the early ones.)

    Almost all tracks are based on a mix of FM and GM versions. (instrument choices based on the GM version, notes from the FM version)
    I need to admit I slightly favour the FM versions though because I generally prefer them over the GM ones. That's also the reason CNZ1's melody instrument is a hybrid between the one of the FM (sawtooth-like FM sound) and GM (typical PSG sound) version, btw.

    Trivia: 90% of all instruments I used come from S3K songs. Some of the songs use only UVB instruments.

    About the volume: Yes, I know about it and will fix it.
     
  9. Machenstein

    Machenstein

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    I'm content with the quality of the PC tracks, but I wouldn't mind seeing some experimentation with the instruments. For example, the instruments for the new Super Sonic theme could sound a bit more like the Sonic & Knuckles title screen and invincibility themes. The instruments for the PC zone themes could also match the Genesis ones in some way, like Carnival Night Genesis with its clowny instruments or Launch Base with its "GO!" sound. As they stand though, I like them as they are.
     
  10. muteKi

    muteKi

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    I had my suspicions about that! Which ones are they? I can figure the Special (I.e., Super Sonic) theme, Launch Base 1, Ice Cap 1, and maybe the competition menu. Were there others?
     
  11. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    I couldn't tell you for sure, but if I had to guess, testing, QA, production and distribution. S&K looks like it was finished in June and didn't make it to shelves until October, so this doesn't seem excessive.

    If there's enough information to say, I don't know of it. I think we'd really need some more pre-S3 and post-S3 prototypes. There's very little evidence of S&K bits left in release S3 - there's the bits of object layout I mentioned, the level select entries of course, the fact that the act music is present and assigned correctly until Sky Sanctuary (ignoring the freak out-of-band LRZ boss act and HPZ), and that LRZ1 seems to have its rotating lava palette until it crashes. Some of Knuckles' mappings and harder bosses are present if you set a certain RAM flag, including an apparent prototype of the end-of-LBZ bomb dropping scene that appears instead of Big Arm, and of course Knuckles' signpost and results screens are done, as is his save screen icon, and I think his continue screen too. More might have been done and removed from the released ROM, but there's no way of knowing as it stands.
     
  12. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    Just a quickie...
    I had ported the fading progression fixes by MarkeyJester for Sonic 1... and since these were only for the fade to black and fade from black routines, that left out the white ones.

    I have just finished the fade to/from white routines and they work without a hitch, and look MUCH better
    Could this slight design change be something we could see in S3 Complete? If so I'll send you the .asm with the routines (The white fade routines were just simple slight alterations of the black fade routines)

    I haven't looked for S3K's equivalent routines, but I imagine porting them over shouldn't be too difficult, since the original routines for all 3 games appear to function the same when seen in action.
     
  13. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

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    If so, make it optional. I love the mismatched color transitions. It's one of a kind and looks really cool.
     
  14. ValleyBell

    ValleyBell

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    Songs with non-UVB instruments are: CNZ1, LBZ2 (the clarinet is non-S3K), S3 Credits (the first melody instrument is completely custom) and the "unused" song
    Some songs were made with only UVB instruments by intention, sometimes it was just coincidence.

    ICZ 1 and 2 share the PSG1/2 data, btw.

    I don't think the instruments of the MD Carnival Night would fit the PC songs. The style is just too different.

    And about Launch Base ... I hate how the "Go!" sound is used in the original LBZ themes. There's no way I'm going to try that on the PC LBZ songs, sorry.
     
  15. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    I'll consider looking at the screen fadeout stuff in the future, but I do somewhat share Mr Lange's opinion that the original idiosyncratic fading has a certain memorable quality that it would be a shame to eliminate. It was memorable enough for S2HD to seemingly deliberately replicate it, after all!
     
  16. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    See ya starside. Member
    Subtracting RGB isn't even the right way to go about it, you need to multiply below 1. Also, I agree that it shouldn't be fixed. It's how the original felt, and it would cause S3C to feel a little unofficial. I know the entire thing is unofficial, but at least it still feels like something Sega would have made.
     
  17. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

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    Don't 'fix' this. LOsT emulated that 'blueish' fade in Sonic 2 HD and it looked awesome and nostalgic!

    They didn't make the fade 'perfect' because the way it is set up it's a lot smoother due to the limited color palette.
     
  18. steveswede

    steveswede

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    Yeah don't remove it, it's something I class as very iconic to Sonic games.
     
  19. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

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    Very true, but they didn't even do that right. They should have subtracted in this pattern:

    BGRBGRBGRBGRBGRBGRBGR

    Instead of:

    BBBBBBBGGGGGGGRRRRRRR
     
  20. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    I should try it in this way (one component at a time that is, not all 3 at once like I did) and compare the two... Thanks for the suggestion.