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Sonic 3 Complete

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    It's never really that easy to implement patch options. I want to keep with the idea that all sound options are selectable in game from now on. That would mean storing a duplicate of every track, which is not a sensible use of the space I have left. Even if I were prepared to keep them as binary patches, I would then have to make sure the patches were binary aligned, which is already a pain with existing patches.

    I've always said I'll take good, S3MDish renditions of the unique PC tracks, but adding PCish versions of the same tracks is not on the cards, sorry.
     
  2. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    See ya starside. Member
    Oh, I thought you meant that you wouldn't consider the PC exclusive tracks that replaced existing tracks from the MD (like Icecap), not that you wouldn't consider the PC versions of the unreplaced tracks (like Angel Island). In that case, I already completely agree with you, they would be identical anyway to the S3MD tracks, and be a waste of time, effort, and cart space. I just meant that I wanted to see the PC exclusive tracks in as an option.


    I want to take on the task of putting together some potential S3MDish versions of the exclusive PC tracks.

    To do this, I was wondering if you could send me a copy of all the DAC samples from the current version of S3C (because I know that you rearranged some, and I'd like the DAC samples to be in the same order that you have them and not the official Sega versions, so it's easier to import them as is). I'd also need the BIN/ASM (whichever you have) files of the SMPS songs to use as a reference for comparing voices in the MD versions to the midi instruments in the PC versions, so that I can use the most S3MDish voices possible for the PC exclusive tracks.

    Think we can arrange this?
     
  3. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    As I said, flamewing's driver as linked above contains everything I use - DAC, music, SFX, PSG, voice banks, squirrels, the whole shebang.
     
  4. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    See ya starside. Member
    Ack, sorry about that, I didn't actually check the link out yet, I assumed that it only included the drivers themselves, and that you were the only one in possession of the resources. I need to do my research before posting. :specialed:
     
  5. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    Meh, I thought the SKC tunes sounded Sonic-y anyway, so I don't see how having or not having a more Megadrive esque instrument set would alter them too much, so long as it sounds good I like the sound of this addition. As for the other tunes in the PC version, they weren't that different anyway, outside a couple of off key bits or slight alterations due to instrument limitations they were basically the same songs (the biggest difference I can think of is the more dynamic ending to the Final Boss theme).
     
  6. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    I would look forward to hearing what either of you (DalekSam or Sodaholic) or indeed anyone else can come up with. Please understand that I reserve the right not to use any or all submissions if I don't like them for any reason (including choice of haircut) or delay use of them indefinitely if I don't get around to getting the sound driver ready to accept them as additional track IDs (which is ultimately how they'll have to be).

    I found in an old VGM in my downloads of the unused theme that I think sounds good. Tracing it back, it looks like Puto made this. The original links in the Genesis music topic don't work, so I've reuploaded it, but will happily take it down if requested. This is the kind of thing I would be happy to put in.

    Since I missed this earlier: it'll certainly be compromised while a four-colour Sonic is on screen, but the only negative effect I think you'll see is the background of the Robotnik monitors. What I need to do is stop it from affecting the default build with Sonic 3 Sonic, who of course uses this for his Super eyes. Ultimately this means that the patch options for alternative blue palettes will almost certainly be built into the actual sprite patches for the next version.
     
  7. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    See ya starside. Member
    There's a bug in the walking animation still in here that's existed since Sonic 2. The first frame of the walking animation when one begins to walk only lasts for one frame, effectively making it look like it skips to the second frame of the walking animation when one starts walking.
     
  8. I collected the rom I used (it was customized by the website), the SRAM, and the savestates in one zip file. The emulator used is Genesis Plus for Wii. http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Genesis_Plus
    The savestate's file extensions are gp0 to gp3. I hope you can open them.
    One of them is a guaranteed kill, if you just spindash.

    Where shall I put or send the zip-file?



    Isn't every piese of music that comes from Sonic & Knuckles from Drossin?
    IIRC he is the only credited composer, if you play Sonic & Knuckles stand-alone

    If not, can somebody direct me to a good article about it?
     
  9. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

    A green crystal Member
    Drossin made:

    Sonic & Knuckles
    Title — Music
    Knuckles' Theme — Music
    Invincible — Music
    1-Up — Music
    All Clear — Music
     
  10. dsrb

    dsrb

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    Shady business means credits aren't a reliable source.

    http://info.sonicretro.org/Michael_Jackson
     
  11. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    Somewhere like Mediafire would probably be the best bet.

    As far as I know, the thinking is that most of the tracks were composed by various people in "Sega Sound Team" with Drossin, as stated above, only having composed the new Knuckles and title themes (and the tracks based on them by association).
     
  12. I hope this is fine:
    www.anonstorage.net/PStorage/199.Marble Zone - Crusher bug.zip


    As said before, this zip file includes 4 savestates (and the rom & sram).
    1 savestate is in Marble Zone and is a sure suicide, if you just spin dash to the left.
    (I was playing in Sonic 3 (Part 1) mode)

    Another savestate is in Ice Cap Zone, where I am blocked from entering a loop, but I am not sure whether it was on purpose.



    Is it possible to make the full game support continuing savegames from Sonic 3 (part 1).
    The original catridges did that, if no Sonic 3 & Knuckles savegames were present, something no re-release I've seen so far ever emulated.



    Thanks for the answers about Howard Drossin's credit.
    The uncertanty about the games' music composers makes me kinda sad :(
     
  13. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    This is aleady supported, as is the reverse (importing from 3C into 3A... with some restrictions, of course).
    You need to delete all the saves from whichever game you want to import into, then back out to the game menu or reset, to make it happen.

    Will check out the zip later. Cheers. :)
     
  14. I kinda feared that answer :)
    Do you see any chance of enhancing that in the future? Maybe allow us to trigger for saveslots it in your options menu?


    By the way, where dou you draw the feature line? You have come a long way in creating a complete Sonic 3 package and killing bugs. Some things you do, like supporting old Sonic sprites, or your great menu, feel like they are are a step beyond Sonic 3 complete.
     
  15. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    I hope to have some more SRAM manipulation options in the future; this may end up being one of them.

    It's a difficult decision in each case, really. A quote often attached to Sonic 3 Complete is "the way it was meant to be played", or "the way Sega originally intended". I don't think either of those are necessarily quite right: more accurately, it's Sonic 3 as I always wanted it. I've made my own rule to keep creative alterations out of the base build so that it can be considered a straight upgrade of the original rather than a "creative reimagining" or "some fan hack", but there are cases where you could argue I've overstepped that - the double-jump configuration and slot machine continue changes spring to mind, but then you have to bear in mind that I consider the original's behaviour completely broken in these respects, to the point that these additions are almost in the bugfix category. Neo's act icons sneaking into the base build is another situation where I've broken the rules a bit, but in the end it's a bit of minor graphical polish that was too cool to omit...

    The menu itself is a slightly different story: I'm more open to playing around with that because it exists totally outside of playing the games, not as a replacement or enhancement to anything. In this respect it's actually a lot cleaner than overloading button+Start combinations on the Sonic 3 title screen as the old versions did. It also made it fairly simple to build in an option for skipping it entirely if you want to pretend none of that external stuff is there.

    Patch options are another matter, and their original intention was purely and simply to allow you to turn some of the seemingly more controversial changes off if you didn't like them. Even the options that made changes other than reverting to S3K standard came about through things I was already working on where I spotted an opportunity for an option someone might enjoy, or through a request that I knew how to fulfil fairly simply. The classic options were something I'd had floating in my head, because I knew there were a lot of people who preferred the old sprites, but not something I ever thought I'd get around doing, since I'm not really an artist and I don't have the masses of time needed to get it right. It was just luck that That One Jig mentioned he'd produced something that might fit the bill, which prompted me to get in contact.

    The patch philosophy still remains the same, though: I don't want to dedicate much of my time to developing patch options. Testing a feature you don't actually use day to day is cumbersome and increases the likelihood of errors creeping in. That said, there is more work that will be done to the existing classic options; I just have to find a decent way to test and to spread my time out onto other things.

    The other limiting factor for patch options - which also helps keep them from being too wild - is that the customiser-based ones can't result in moving any offsets or extending the ROM or any of its assets, as this would prevent all the other options from applying to the right offsets. On the other hand, for in-game menu options, that restriction isn't relevant, but for those, I need to keep all related assets and code in the main build (which is why the sprite options won't be in the menu any time soon - they'd use up most of the remaining space). Menu options also need some space in RAM where I can store how they're set, which is at an extreme premium, to the point that I already need to do some reorganisation to store much more than is already there.

    tl;dr version - the limits on what goes in the base ROM are mostly philosophical and just fall to my (fairly strict) judgement at the time; the limits on patches and options are mostly technical and time related ones. :)
     
  16. I recreated the situation in Fusion
    www.anonstorage.net/PStorage/789.Crusher Bug.gsx

    Place Sonic (with Tails?) at coordinate 0D1F 043D in Act 1 of Marble Garden Zone and spindash to the left. There is something visible in debugmode below the crusher, I guess it is a kill object?

    Addendum: this time from a fresh unmodified new ROM, in Sonic 3 Complete mode, I used debugmode and stage select.

    Addendum 2: It also works on an unmodified European ROM of Sonic 3.
    When I use the scroll glitch to make the camera wrap around vertically, and thus make the opjects disappear, nothing bad happens.
     
  17. It is not mentioned on the Wiki page, but I realized that you can set the default menu choice by holding A when you select a game/mode.

    It also looks like there are still some problems with the HUD's shadow in Act 1 of Angel Island Zone, before the fire starts ...
     
  18. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    Actually, I'd forgotten about that! I used that to test that feature because it predates the options menu by some margin. I wouldn't necessary rely on it; it may be removed in future. There are a couple of undocumented sound test cheats in there too, FWIW; I may log those at some point.

    Yeah, as I think I mentioned last release, I look at that every so often and sigh and leave it for later, because it need some careful thought and sprite reconstruction to fix. (The white on the rocks is on the same palette entry as the HUD shadow, and there's no easy place I've found to remap that without breaking everything else.)
     
  19. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    See ya starside. Member
    Perhaps you can consider creating a sprite overlay of just the white color using the first palette line's white color as extra sprite tiles over the rocks, and have the HUD use black, so that things still appear properly? To me, it seems this solution would work pretty much perfectly.
     
  20. RetroKoH

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    Why not just get rid of the goddamned thing? would it look that bad without the shadow effect? I mean... Sonic's 1 and 2 did fine without it. I know that you want to Sonic 3-ify this thing, but you've already strayed a little bit away from that... and by my estimation, this HUD is really just one big blatent bug by Sonic Team, at an attempt at a new HUD for the new game.

    I'd personally call it a bug fix if you got rid of the shadow part, or just used a consistent black color or something... much like the earlier games. Think about how much trouble it's making you go out of your way for just this thing... when that time and effort could be put toward other aspects of the game... just my 2 cents.

    I've just heard about how much trouble people go through to try to fix this thing, and its laughable IMO. I don't see the point personally. But maybe I'm wrong and the small extra detail means everything...:v: (I could be wrong, it could look like shit without shadows, I dunno.)