Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.
I'd just love to tear that shit apart... without the insta-shield!
If it's got to such a refined state we're asking for more ambitious extras, my best idea is maybe add additional soundtracks if you can find a good enough Genesis music composer, like the new tracks from Sonic and Knuckles Collection. Or better yet make extentions to the current soundtrack akin to Howard Drossin's official remixes. I feel the full versions of Lava Reef or Knuckles' theme would sound awesome with the game version's instrumentation:
I like that sprite design by the way, Jasonchrist. Even if not for this one, I think that would be cool to use in some project.
I'll be ready to tackle the process of adding the fourth blue back into the old-school sprites, but for now I'm kind of at a halt with that. Tiddles is trying to figure out what all will be affected by removing the green from Sonic's palette and how to accommodate for that. This will involve a bit of trickery, with the intended result being that Sonic gains back the blue without Knuckles losing his green socks.
Oh wow, I can't believe I've forgotten about that hack. MarkeyJester did some of the most amazing work I've seen in any game hack, Sonic or otherwise!
Unfortunately, if your intention is to make every animation as fluid as that, that most likely won't be possible given the space constraints the hack has and the limitations of uncompressed art files in Genesis games. An art file can only hold up to an absolute maximum of 4,111 tiles (4,096 + a possible 15 if the last DPLC is called starting from tile 4096). Considering that character art files for S3K are nearly full as it is (Sonic's original art file uses over 4,096 tiles alone, and that's not even all of his art!), we wouldn't be able to squeeze in many more sprites per file. Even if we did go the route of including multiple files per character, a la the "Extra" art files for Sonic and Tails's SK exclusive sprites, the ROM's size would quickly inflate, preventing other, more important things from being added into the hack as a whole. It would also be quite inconvenient to handle and convoluted to include as a patch option.
As for the walking and running sprites, the rotation of character' graphics would require altering of the code that handles how character objects are rendered on slopes and loops, or something to that effect. I don't recall how "Pana" did it, either through adding more angles which the sprites will vary on (which would require many more tiles), or if rotation technology is being used (this would actually lower tile usage for these animations, but could prove problematic in applying it to a game that already has so much "happening" behind the scenes). Regardless, such a change really wouldn't be in the scope of the hack's goals and would be a very low priority, if one at all.
Don't forget that doing this would mean that a buttload of custom sprites would need to be made for all the characters and sprite styles.
If this were a hack of Sonic 2 it would be much more easily possible, considering that there are many less things that the characters actually do in that game. Not here though, sorry.
Ooh, these things. I'm not surprised that they would eventually show up here after the old-school stuff started appearing in S3C. Like I said above in response to Knucklez, I don't see this being part of the goals of the hack in the foreseeable future. You never know, though. One day Tiddles might open the doors to just about anything getting into this hack. I'd need to take a look at a more complete sprite sheet, anyways.
I am thrilled to hear this!
Even little things like this will help me play this game much more enjoyably, really.
One thing I just noticed now, in the laser boss from FBZ act 2, it actually have a "hurt" animation that sometimes it pops-up, for varing periods of time, but not correctly.
It might be something worthy of fixing, like when the laser hits the flor, the Doctor should always make this animation.
Maybe the Robotnik/EggRobo hurt animation should only occur as it does; after the laser's last beam, at which point the laser's control mechanism blows up in Robotnik's/EggRobo's face, which causes him to get hurt.
Otherwise, no other hurt animation is necessary since he doesn't receive any direct damage. So the only fixing needed would be eliminating the random pop-up of the animation during the boss.
...Or it's is more of a "oh crap" expression (this animation is actually different from when the boss is defeated btw), other bosses have this animation when they get a hit and this one it seems it's coded to appear, it just not working right.
I'm not a fan of solving problems with removing the problem itself, but I'm not the one calling the shots anyway.
Ohhh, I get where you're coming from now. But in this case since he doesn't get hit, he just makes the face like Oh damn, I'm blowing up my ship. Gotcha.
When I play Sonic 3 Complete on Genesis Plus for Wii, the crushers in Marble Garden Zone kill me very often, even if they don't touch me at all.
For example: the crusher at 0CE2 0424 (debug mode coordinate)
When I try it in Kega Fusion it happens about 1 in 15 times.
I have a save-state from Gens Plus Wii. Shall I upload it, or send it to somebopdy.
Or is it a know S3&K bug, that I missed the for last 15 years?
It's something of a known S3K issue, though it shouldn't really vary between emulators. It's much more likely to happen while rolling, so try walking under them.
May as well upload the savestate anyway, as it might be useful for developing a workaround, but only if it's prior to dying.
Oh God dat fucking bug! The amount of times I've been rocking a sweet run, feeling like a boss and I've been shafted by the crushing cocks of shame.
I think I recall those crushers killing me a couple of times during my earlier runs of the game. One of those times it was when I was Super. It was a bit of a shocker, to say the least.
I've only been able to get to semi-consistently happen while rolling, especially when Spin Dashing. If the bug noticeably happens more in a different emulator, like the Wii's GensPlus one that you mentioned, then its an emulator problem. I don't know how active work is on that emulator, but I wouldn't get my hopes up on it getting something fixed up for just one game. Just run underneath it.
I haven't thought about it for some time, but what I wanted to do was to see if shifting the kill objects in the floor down a few pixels would help matters. I think that's why rolling is a particular issue - your actual x-position is lower in a ball so you're considered to have collided with them in places where you wouldn't if running. I suspect a high speed is also implicated because you're more likely to be slightly out of kilter with the undulating floor.
Has anyone found whether it's only certain crushers that are a problem, or do we think they can all get you in certain circumstances? Those first two on the "top" route of Marble Garden are the ones that screw me up. If it's just those, I can try moving their specific objects. If not, I might try to do something in the program to shift all occurences, but if I move them too far away, there's a risk you could just be pushed into the ground rather than killed, which may end up worse.
The kill objects aren't needed, from what I can tell. I have tested removing them before and there doesn't seem to be any ill-effects from them not being there; you still get killed from the crusher object. Not only that, but some of the crushers don't even have the kill object underneath them and still work.
If they are needed for whatever reason, then moving them down a few pixels should fix the issue... although as you said, you may get stuck in the floor a little. It will depend on a case by case basis due to the floor being unlevel, if they really are needed.
That makes me worry that the ones that do have objects had them added because it was possible to get stuck in the floor, which may not bode well for moving them. I'll have to play around a bit.
I'm curious, if the PC version songs are added, why do you want them remixed/arranged to sound more like Drossin's music? As someone who grew up with the PC version, I'd really like to see the songs as they were originally intended, and not redone for consistency with the rest of the soundtrack. Even if I hadn't grown up with it, I still see it as deviating from canon.
I mean, they should still sound instrumentally consistent (both version's "soundfonts", if you will). For example let's say that Instrument A is the midi instrument used in the PC version for an unreplaced song, and Instrument B is the voice that the Megadrive version uses for the same part in the same song. Instrument C is a midi instrument used in one of the PC exclusive songs, and Instrument D is the FM voice used in the converted version. In this case, if Instument C is the same as Instrument A, then Instrument B would be used as Instrument D as well in the converted PC exclusive song.
I think I might try to give this a shot and see what people think of my attempts. Tiddles, is it okay if I have a copy of all the SMPS music and DAC samples in S3C? Also, does anyone know where I can find good rips (with the looping errors fixed) of both the FM and GM midis from Sonic and Knuckles collection? I've been looking everywhere, but can't find decent rips.
The latest version of flamewing's improved sound driver contains (nearly) all the tracks I'm using. I haven't upgraded to the latest version, but I should be doing so during the next release cycle.
All I mean regarding consistency is that since I have no intention to include any "PC versions" of tracks that are meant to be the same tune, nor any changes to the driver or common sound/instrument data, the MD versions of the unique PC tracks mustn't stick out too badly from the native MD tracks that will still be present. It's not particularly that they need to sound like Drossin's work (who AFAIK isn't responsible for any of the music I use by default anyway!) Thus far I've heard many conversions that sound like the originals but don't particularly sound like they fit in Sonic 3.
The PC tracks weren't "originally intended" to be part of the MD version at all, and if they were, they wouldn't have sounded like they do on PC. I'm not interested in replicating that sound because it will just sound wrong in this context.
As for the 4 shades of blues patch, I'm curious how you plan on implementing it without compromising the green color?
Ah, I see. Even if most people wouldn't use it, if it's easy enough to implement as something entirely optional and not default, is there really a problem with adding them? It's true that they don't fit Sonic 3 at all, and that they're really not that great, but I (and likely others) really like them for the nostalgia factor.
Besides the fact that you personally don't like them, are there any other objections to including them as an optional extra? It would make plenty of people happy.
Of course I don't want the existing MD tracks to be any different whatsoever, I was talking about making the PC tracks consistent with the MD ones instrumentally.
You're gonna want to look for nineko's old rip from a couple of years back. The data is complete accurate conversion from the data in the game (the game itself doesn't have external midis, iirc). I don't have a link off hand, however.
In terms of arranging stuff, I wouldn't mind taking a shot at arranging the SKC tunes a little to fit a little more, but I'm not that confident I could make it consistent with the rest of the game.
I knew that I saw it on these forums before, I just didn't remember who posted it, and searches came up with nothing. Searching Nineko's posts got some results. I found something where someone improved on his work. Thanks for leading me toward it!
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