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Sonic 3 Complete

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    I don't see why the cannon from CNZ wouldn't be a proficient transition to FBZ. And the door from FBZ can be the snowboard in ICZ.

    But I don't know about the MHZ to SZ transition. Maybe Tails can fly Sonic away and chase after Eggman?
     
  2. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    A couple notes I took on this.
    A. If Glisp is mentioning the same point of LBZ that I'm thinking of, then the Super Flicky incident causes you to get stuck behind that wall, yes? cuz I do believe that is what happened to me in that area, only with Hyper Sonic and his Hyper jump... I used it to take out the 2 orbinauts, and it also triggered the wall switch, trapping me. Something else about that switch to consider...
    B. I am against Tails in Doomsday Zone. I understand your logic on this, Glisp, but IMO that extra stage helps set Sonic's story apart from Tails'. I always looked at Tails' story being an Easy difficulty of sorts compared to Sonic anyway... besides, Tails is only the sidekick, Sonic is the main hero. He should be the only one who faces off against the final boss.\
    C. I'm all for the 2P Knuckles change, Bear this in mind though, I believe that one of the reasons this got scrapped, was because there was no real way the player could use it to his advantage in the 2P race mode. I could be wrong, but I think that was part of the reason why. So it'll be a nice touch, but it would do little to affect the 2P gameplay.
     
  3. MastaSys

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    Well we got a good transition in MHZ for that, that introduces well the zone as a flying ship, if it's viable to port it to CNZ would be great, but if it's too much work yeah the cannon fits it well too.

    IMO, I think using the door isn't really necessary, it's not that worthy to make new snowboard sprites, just make sonic hit the board in a bigger angle to make the transition more belivable.
    But if that idea it's used, (After all Naka himself talked about it) when Sonic hits the door, he grabs it in that moment, and use it as a snowboard in the air before changing zones, and then makes Sonic hit the floor already with it in ICZ Zone.

    In Mushroom Hill/Valley, I think I already mentioned the wind rising (just like Knuckles' Trap) for the sake of not removing the moment Sonic goes into the sand, but Tails Grabing him is not a bad idea too.

    For me in a perfect world (with optional patches or not).

    Sonic 3 Complete Mode
    -Sonic/Tails FBZ is located after CNZ and then it goes to ICZ after it. (Night)
    -Knuckles just goes to FBZ after MHZ (Day), since his transitions don't help too much to FBZ to fit there, one of some things that implies that we wouldn't got to that Zone, and it makes possible to visit it in both "times".

    S3 Alone and S&K
    Just like retail.

    I don't know technical details, but this seems too much work, maybe in the Saving Screen or having two versions of the same zone, I don't know.
    Still I can dream :P
     
  4. Knucklez

    Knucklez

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    This is pretty much why I disagree with all of this. Going through all the trouble of making new transitions, sprites, or whatever else to implement something that was scrapped from the game pre-release, seems like a someone's having a bad case of OCD.

    It's not like the level was scrapped entirely from the game like the half-dozen levels from Sonic 2, which were remade and put back in the game by other hackers. FBZ was just in a different order, and hell, it turned out great with a proper transition from MHZ. That's how it was officially released with Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles being two seperate games, and that's how it remained when they locked-on. Get where I'm coming from? Yes, the Sonic 3 level select had FBZ between CNZ and ICZ, and as Tiddles mentioned, there were leftovers from FBZ in the Sonic 3 game code, but if you are actually going to implement this whole thing, making it an internal patch option would be the best fit.

    Like I said, how the game turned out as a finished product is the final build its makers went with that made it original all it itself. If S3C's default level order was different from that of Sonic 3 (part one) and Sonic & Knuckles, would that really make sense at all?

    This whole thing seems to be about trying to stamp OFFICIAL on a game during its pre-alpha or alpha stage of release... and I do apologize if I'm annoying any of you for getting too in on this, but I'm just trying to get a serious point across.
     
  5. MastaSys

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    So it were the Sonic 2 sprites in Sonic 3, which we already got options to use them.
    I understand your point, but if Tiddles is willing to do it in the end, as a option, it woundn't hurt, would it?

    In a way this rom is backtracking some of it's "decisions" before it was broken into two, to make a "Sonic 3 Complete".
    How back it goes to reach that state, it's very subjective to the preferences of anyone, nothing was set in stone before Sonic 3 (Alone) was released, I for example like the Sonic 3's Sonic, others here like Sonic 2's ones.

    And as much this game is near the one officially released, some liberty and originality was used, there never was a Tails Cutscene, nor a Death Egg cutscene, nor Super Sonic playing a fast version of the level music instead of the main theme nor the way we transforms into it, etc...

    It's not that big of a deal to you to be defensive, and in the end Tiddles might drop the idea anyway if he feels like it.
     
  6. RetroKoH

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    Heres an unrelated idea. Can we see Knuckles and Tails together as a playable combo?
     
  7. Knucklez

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    Wouldn't that conflict with storylines and cutscenes?

    However, if they were a combo, they'd have to follow Knuckles' storyline because the Sonic & Tails specific routes are too high for him to access due to his weak jump (then again Tails could fly him up, but.. ehh). But, the obvious fact is, Knuckles is the one blowing out bridges and causing diversions for Sonic & Tails in their storylines, so who would be the one doing it if he followed Tails' storyline? Don't even dare say Sonic... Lol.

    Knuckles' story would work out great except you'd have to figure out how to implement Tails into Knuckles' opening cutscene, as well as his ending cutscene after Mecha's defeat. Would Sonic still be the one flying the Tornado? Where would Tails be while Knuckles is already taking up the spot to stand on? It would seem illogical to magically have Tails fly the Tornado if he teamed up with Knuckles against Mecha. Unless it was already parked on SSZ where we couldn't initially see it.

    I've thought about this combo before, it would be interesting, but the only major setback for it would be the overall storyline.
     
  8. DTX

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    Why can't the airship at the end of Mushroom Hill carry Sonic* off to Sandopolis, appearing at the beginning of the latter stage? It could begin its descent, and either it would somehow jettison Sonic or instead Sonic would jump off of his own accord — maybe it would keep on flying, but Eggman would escape in his Egg Mobile, with Sonic jumping off after him, landing into the sand.

    *Or whomever you play as

    It could be Robotnik or an Egg Robo. Or Rouge even! (; C'mon, you know as well as I that in the first cutscene between the two of them in SA2 doesn't in any way specifically indicate that meeting as their first — it'd be by no means a complete retcon. (; (;

    Besides, if you did Knuckles's storyline, you could just make it that Knuckles is suspicious against Sonic but not Tails, not realizing Tails is affiliated with Sonic.

    I'm sorry, I don't remember if Knuckles has been given an opening cutscene yet. Since this is S3C, has his MHZ cutscene been transposed to AIZ? Regardless, in regard to Tails being on his side, there could be inserted into the beginning of AIZ a Knuckles' Chaotix-esque scene/event where Knuckles fights off the Egg Robo and jumps on a Capsule/Egg Prison, freeing not only several Flickies and Cuckies but Tails as well. Then Tails would follow Knuckles into the rest of the game.

    As for the ending, I would make so that both acts of Sky Sanctuary would be played; the first act will be Tails's, and the control would switch to him. After Knuckles sends out the bridge and Tails goes across, Knuckles goes back to the teleporter and warps away off-screen. You then play through Tails's act as you normally would, the act ending with the defeat of Metal Sonic v3 and Tails racing up that collapsing spiral path, jumping off at the top to the Death Egg. Then it is immediately followed up by Knuckles's SSZ act, that playing out as it normally does. The ending cutscene would show Sonic flying the Tornado to catch Knuckles, with Tails hanging onto the tail fin (using that animation he has when he's hanging onto the side of something with his body hanging back behind him [I can't remember when he uses it, though I think it's either used in WFZ or FBZ, maybe the end of MHZ].)

    Also, this. The simple answer: who cares? As long as it's Knuckles & Tails, it's automatically too awesome for continuity to matter. Though I still think Tails should be hanging onto the Tornado's tail fin at the end, for the lolz.
     
  9. Dark Sonic

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    Umm would it matter? It'd be fun that's all I care about. I love seeing Tails follow Knuckles around.
     
  10. Josh

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    Tiddles addressed this a long time ago. I think his answer was something to the effect of, "I can't just have you raping the game as Super/Hyper Sonic without at least SOME small repercussion!"
     
  11. GeneHF

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    I suggested before that the character just latches on to the side of Eggman's fleeing Eggpod and is dropped off in the desert. Simple enough.
     
  12. Chimera

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    This makes me think of how Generations' Super's were nerfed, but how they didn't have their own super music...


    Aside from that, I like the whole being cannoned off into the Flying Battery Zone and then kicking off the door to the airship and using it as a snowboard as you travel down Ice Cap. Gives Sonic that same badass feel he did in Sonic Adventure 2 when he did basically the same thing, except replace airship with helicopter and Ice Cap with Central City/San Francisco. Not only that, but it makes more sense for Sonic to reach the polar caps of Angel Island by falling off a giant aircraft that could well be moving at high speeds as opposed to ONE cannon at the outskirts of the Carnival Night Zone just somehow being so powerful you can launch yourself miles away from the entire zone... and suddenly grab a snowboard.

    And there's my two cents; I'm fairly certain just using the basic sprites found in Flying Battery could make a believable effect of Sonic grabbing debris in the breaking-down-while-crashing airship and using it as a snowboard, even if the only indication is a bunch of pieces of metal flying out the area of the Flying Battery that Sonic escapes and, in Ice Cap, he starts snowboarding down the snowy hills.
     
  13. RetroKoH

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    I would love it, plus it would open up the possibilities of this game even more. Knuckles could access more paths this way, either in his own route, or on Sonic's... with a flying sidekick... Plus to glide right into Tails' waiting arms to fly off...
    I'd love this combo as a patch or something.
     
  14. Hahaha. I used to be able to disable the music with 20+ Game Genie codes but not anymore due to all the changes. I personally can't stand the invincibility music anymore nor do I like the level's music sped up as I like listening to it in the original tempo but that's okay I suppose.
     
  15. Machenstein

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    While we're still talking about Super form music, I'd like to make an SMPS of the Virtual Sonic rendition of the Sonic & Knuckles theme, only with a faster tempo. Where would I go to learn how to make it?
     
  16. Glisp

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    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    Was there much point in tails being able to fly in 2 player mode? No, not really, but it's there lol.
     
  17. RetroKoH

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    Well by that logic, it should be put in. As I stated, I'm all for the addon. I was simply bringing up an argument against bothering to take the time to add it.
    BTW I used Tails flying to assist me in 2P. You could argue that gliding could help also, but I guess we will have to see for ourselves if it gets added... I'm just so used to not having it that I don't think the abilities would help in a race but I could very well be wrong.
     
  18. ...why are you all talking as if it's up to you to decide what goes into the hack and what doesn't?
    Aside from a few glints of intelligence, these past few pages have been PAINFUL to read.

    I also must say that you're all over-thinking the Mushroom Hill - Sandopolis transition; there's a cliff at the end to jump off of and you fall into Sandopolis. After hitting the capsule Sonic/Tails/Knuckles runs forward and hops off of the cliff, leading into the existing Sandopolis opening transition.
    This solution is simple, requires little to no actual code, and it makes sense.
     
  19. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    We were all simply making suggestions of things we think would work, all of while understanding that if Tiddles wanted, he could, and has every right to, tell us to piss off and wait for the release and shut up. But he, along with most people working on projects like this, doesn't do that... Instead opting to hear us out. Some things he likes, and MAYBE gets considered, while others... Not so much. I think it's safe to say he appreciates our input, so as to know what the fans would like to see in a hack, especially considering he's implemented many of those ideas... AND gone through the extra trouble of making patches to accommodate all of us completely... Something which I believe hasn't been done before, with the exception of the now canceled Sonic 3 Customizable. So, with all due respect, where you get off saying we can't give our opinion... Is lost on me. Unless Tiddles himself tells us to back off, I'm sure the input is welcome.

    Rant over. My apologies to anyone bothered by this extra, slightly off topic post.
     
  20. DTX

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    Actually, Knuckles isn't just a red knockoff of Sonic in Competition Mode, his jump height (I think) was a little lower (which would be consistent with 1 Player Mode anyway), his max speed was lower, and his acceleration was (if I'm not mistaken) slightly higher.

    Also, in regard to Miles, his double-jump could be used as something of a glide in this mode, which could save time depending on how you used it, on what stages and when. And on Balloon Park, his Flight ability could be used right after falling through the gap between the two "elephant trunks" and landing on the flooring below; instead of having to run and jump just right to get onto that yellow balloon (or Spin Dash just right,) Miles could run, jump (early), fly up a little, and land onto the yellow balloon. The difference? He bounces up extra high off that yellow balloon while flying. If I remember right, you can shave off about a second if you land on it like that and then quickly swerve left then right.

    Just throwing that out there.

    Although I admit Knuckles's lack of a glide irked me too. And I really did not see the point of giving both Sonic and Knuckles the Insta-Shield ability if it, other than making a cool sound effect when "used", was completely useless.