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Sonic 3 Complete

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. That One Jig

    That One Jig

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    Speaking of getting stuck, it looks like there are still some areas where collision isn't the best. Like this area in HCZ1, I can occasionally get wedged into the wall at this quarter pipe when rolling at maximum speed. There always seems to be problems with them in Sonic games.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    If you push right you'll be glitched out of the wall, but pushing left will get you stuck. All you can do is get a time over or reset, assuming you're not using codes.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  2. Knucklez

    Knucklez

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    I would definately be in on the discussion here with everyone if I wasn't limited on posts but I had to point this stuff out :british:

    I don't know if anyone ever pointed this out or even noticed, doubt it, but during Sonic's cutscene (after either final boss/before the credits) while he's standing on the Tornado as it flies in front of Angel Island, his eyes are green and there's a green lining between his shoes and the platform of the Tornado. It looks like he's standing on grass which leads me to assume he left the Tornado out in the jungle for too long to the point where shrubs grew on it. And the crappy color problem is also present while they fly across screen as the Master Emerald just sits on the grass with Knuckles watching as they go. Not as noticeable on the video as it would be on an emulator (which is dead noticeable) but watch at 4:13 and 4:46:



    Ok so to add on, while playing as Tails alone (without collecting a set of emeralds) and defeating Eggman on his final attempt at escaping with the Master Emerald, he drops the Master Emerald instead of holding onto it and moving on as the Death Egg explodes with Tails falling to Earth. So the Master Emerald falls with Tails but stays in space as Tails continues falling. This doesn't make sense since Tails didn't collect the Super Emeralds. However, while playing as Sonic+Tails / Sonic alone, Eggman doesn't drop the Emerald and moves on, which is followed by Sonic falling alone. This was obviously overlooked in Tails' case, but I'm just saying.

    And another minor (nitpicking) issue is how Knuckles is yellow/orange during his cutscene on the Tornado when seen off in the distance right before being dropped off on Angel Island. I know it's only a few pixels but maybe it's my OCD talking... idk.

    Ohhh, and seriously, I'm glad someone recently mentioned the annoying ass screetching sound made by the bomb explosion after Knuckles' Big Arm boss in LBZ2, cause you hear something like it again after the MHZ2 boss results screen coming from Eggman/EggRobo while he flies by and up into Flying Battery. I noticed that they "fixed" these two sounds in S3K PC in S&K Collection; the explosion sounds like that of every boss explosion after defeat and the Eggman/EggRobo flyby transitions with a complete alarm-like sound like if you heard the cops coming.

    Just suggesting all of this, cause crap like that needs patching up, otherwise I love everything you've done with this hack Tiddles... making my favorite childhood game all perfect and what not. Keep it up and I'm looking forward to whatever else you got in store.
     
  3. Tiberious

    Tiberious

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    I was able to crash the game in Angel Island Act 2 (had used the codes to get all the Super Emeralds as well as the regular Emeralds. I tried, and failed, to avoid the water shield monitor, and just after getting the 1 Up underwater at the first spiked log platform, I attempted to transform. I'm not sure what happened, but it locked up horribly.
     
  4. Machenstein

    Machenstein

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    I'm not sure if anyone has suggested this yet, but would it be possible for the Super/Hyper form theme to be separate from the invincibility theme? I'm thinking more along the lines of this theme in Genesis format.

     
  5. MotorRoach

    MotorRoach

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    How come I wasn't aware of this song here?

    Well, I'm not sure of the idea of making a new music into the game, but I do think it's quite a fine idea to have a different music exclusively for Super/Hyper forms. Although if it would be based on the unused music from S&K Collection, I think the music should sound a bit more fast paced and sound somewhat more exciting to fit better the Super/Hyper forms, kind of like the invincibility theme in Sonic 3/& Knuckles or the Super theme in Sonic 2 are like.
     
  6. I second that theme. It sounds freaking awesome! I actually have a copy of S&K Collection somewhere, but I lost the disc a very long time ago. I've been using emulators to play them ever since. I actually never learned how to get past the barrel in Carnival Night Zone until I started using emulators, so I've never actually gotten to hear the changed music like Ice Cap.

    If you aren't going to use the music, I don't suppose anybody's done a hack that imported all of the S&K Collection changes into the Genesis version? I would love to see what actually got changed.
     
  7. dsrb

    dsrb

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    Correct me if I'm wrong (or confirm if I'm right), but I think Tiddles already offered to include the S&KC tracks if someone would prepare them in SMPS format. Gentlemen, start your engines.

    That track is cool, I guess. And its being unused kinda fits with a repurposing to this new role. As long as it's optional, it's a good suggestion.



    Hey, this might be within the scope of the customiser: Having just read this post, I realised that an option to use EggRobo as the boss instead of Robotnik, and vice-versa, might be cool for about a minute.
     
  8. Knucklez

    Knucklez

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    As I mentioned in my previous post, there were inconsistencies with Sonic's colors during the pre-credits cutscene. I made mockups of how it would look fixed, as well as mockups of other inconsistencies. To clearly see what I fixed, I suggest you zoom in on the screenshots.

    Original: [​IMG] Fix: [​IMG]

    Now with a few other things in mind..

    - Implementing proper Knuckles *falling* sprites. The back and forth flickering of the closed-eyes/open-eyes sprite animation during Knuckles' LBZ transition falling to Mushroom Valley seems visually incomplete in terms of smooth animation, which Sonic and Tails both seem to have.

    - Implementing exhaust flames to the Tornado during the Hyper Sonic/Super Tails pre-credits cutscene when they're flying through Angel Island after returning the Master Emerald would make sense since it's the only instance the Tornado seems to lack the animation. Here is the original and a mockup of the animation, along with Sonic's green color problem fixed.

    Original: [​IMG] Fix: [​IMG]

    - In LBZ1, in the tower that would be bombed down by Knuckles, up-right from the moving platform, there's a gap in the wall that could be patched up to look like the rest of the wall.

    Original: [​IMG] Fix: [​IMG]

    - In LBZ1, after Knuckles bombs the tower down, the corkscrew platform and the collapsible edges remain in place even after the tower's collapse. The spot in the doorway in-between the edges (if jumped on) will allow you to avoid touching them, thus allowing you to jump out and see them suspended if you Lightning-shield Jump, Hyper Dash, or use Debug Mode. In this case I used Debug Mode to get proper screenshots and avoid spending too much time playing through the level to get to the problem.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I hope all of these will get fixed, especially Sonic's annoying green issue, but that's all I have for the time being. I'll nitpick around for more things.
     
  9. jasonchrist

    jasonchrist

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    How in the hell have I missed this?!

    What an awesome piece of work. I once made feeble attempts to port Sonic 1/2 sprites into Sonic 3k using SonikSprite, but now someone has finally done it properly. Bravo!

    Just a couple of 1/2-isms to suggest.

    Sonic 1/2 Robotnik/eggpods One thing I missed was Robotnik's evil laugh whenever you took a hit. I could do some modifications to the boss machines to make them fit the old eggpods if you like.

    Traditional spinners What could happen here is that you have a screen lock for an act 1 boss, and instead of the spinner falling from the air the screen is unlocked as you move forward to hit the spinner in the old-school way.

    and as someone has already suggested, including some Nakamura staple tunes like 1ups, invincibilities, act clears and maybe bosses - that would be cool as well!
     
  10. Fred

    Fred

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    All the way since Sonic 1, Sonic (and Tails) have a one-frame hurt animation, and a two-frame sliding animation, in which the first frame is shared with the hurt animation. This is also true in Sonic 3. However, Knuckles has a different behavior -- the sliding animation only uses the "second" frame, and doesn't alternate between it and the hurt frame. This leads me to believe that the LBZ sequence, much like Tails and the LRZ2 boulder, are remnants of using Sonic's animation scheme for the wrong character -- in this case, Sonic would be shown correctly using his sliding (or "falling") animation, so the proper fix would be to make that sequence use Knuckles' sliding animation -- just the one frame with his eyes open. As a matter of fact, isn't that how he falls into MHZ1 in the first place?

    But that hole is supposed to be there! That's the hole Knuckles uses to reach his boss arena. Sonic can't reach it because the building hasn't been demolished yet. You could argue that the hole was only created when Knuckles' bomb exploded but... isn't this being a bit too nitpicky?
     
  11. That One Jig

    That One Jig

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    Thank you! I'm happy to see that my work paid off for this. I was just afraid that since this porting wasn't a 1:1 conversion process that some people might get all nitpickey. Good to see that that isn't the case. I'm still working on refinements with the sprites, especially the S1 sprite set. Getting that angry eye implemented for ya all!

    I think the main problem with incorporating older Robotnik eggpods is, like you said, how they would fit into the many contraptions he pits against Sonic and co. Plus I do not know if it would go against story canon. I always thought that his original eggpod was completely destroyed after trying to escape from Final Zone back in Sonic 1, and that his S2 eggpod, which he had "parked" in the original Death Egg, met a similar fate. It's not really the same as changing Sonic's sprites; although S3K interpreted it differently, each game modeled the hedgehog off of what the concept art depicted. It was all the same classic Sonic. Robotnik's machines, on the other hand, reflect new designs of his own after repeated failed attempts, all with the intent to be better than the previous one.

    I would like to see his evil laugh re-implemented, though! That's one of the few things that kind of let me down with the original S3K, but I kind of just got used to.

    Classic signposts might become a possible old-school feature in the future, but it would take some time to not only implement them, but determine what would happen to those in-between act transitions. Would they still be there, or would the screen fade out and fade back in to the title card for the next act? It all depends on what Tiddles decides to do about it, IF he does anything about it at all.

    And the Nakamura themes would require extra thought, especially considering the music bank limitations. There aren't enough free spots to store all the old-school themes, so something creative would need to be done about that. Plus someone would need to compose new title screen and invincibility themes for the game based off the older two; these two themes were different between S1 and S2, so it would make sense that it was the same case for S3(Complete). Finally, it would leave a particular dilemma: would it be necessary to include Nakamura's name in the end credits?

    Firstly, as Neo said, Knuckles is likely using an animation meant for only Sonic and Tails. It should just be because there's an actual entry for a two-sprite "sliding" animation when there shouldn't be one in the first place for Knuckles. So it should be a relatively simple fix.

    Second, I also caught on to Sonic's strange green pixels on those sprites. I asked Tiddles awhile back about them, and he determined that they were meant to serve as an early form of anti-aliasing. Since players would be experiencing S3K on their CRT TVs instead pixel-perfect emulators, the green would actually help accentuate Sonic's shape with a smaller sprite. It didn't seem to pay off. It's an easy "fix", though: just replace the green with the same black that Sonic always uses in game.

    And finally, I never noticed that the Tornado didn't have exhaust fumes in that last scene before the credits. I guess I was always either too busy looking at Knuckles and the Master Emerald, or just doing something else. Perhaps Sonic and Tails are just taking one last slow cruise around Angel Island. Unless this is due to sprite count issues, I don't see why this couldn't be amended.
     
  12. dsrb

    dsrb

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    Interestingly enough, in fellow super-hack Sonic 2 Heroes, Sonic (and only Sonic) uses the two-frame sliding animation for the hurt state, too.
     
  13. Glisp

    Glisp

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    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    Edit: Nevermind, just found the online Customizer. You guys are awesome. =P
     
  14. Effexor

    Effexor

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    Speaking of colors, is it possible to make Robotnik in Sonic's Hidden Palace not cause everything to flash white when you hit him?
     
  15. Metal Man88

    Metal Man88

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    I haven't had time to read the whole topic, but I wonder if Knuckles in FBZ2 could finally get a proper Eggrobo version of that boss that shows up there?
     
  16. dsrb

    dsrb

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    It did, ages ago.
     
  17. Knucklez

    Knucklez

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    You're right, I used Debug mode to check and it is the entrance to Knuckles' boss arena. Being too nitpicky isn't a bad thing though, it can mean the difference between taking care of a possible flaw, or leaving it to remain for all see.. I hope you catch my drift. I have a thing for making something come as close to perfect as possible, and as far as this hack has come, the list of imperfections gets smaller and smaller after every release. So it's best to nitpick anything that might need a fix, so good ol' Tiddles doesn't run out stuff to do.
     
  18. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    I see Knuckles' post LBZ2 falling animation the opposite way.

    If this had been designed for Sonic/Tails to have two frames, it would just use the standard fall animation setting, which would give them two frames but Knuckles one, as in the beginning of MGZ/MHZ. It appears that this particular instance has been deliberately set up to flip between the two states, which would only make sense for Knuckles, and I suspect was intended to give something a little more dynamic than his usual fall/hurt animations... daft as it might end up looking.

    Robotnik dropping the Master Emerald for Tails in DEZ is also not an oversight. There's no Doomsday for him to get it back, so I left everything the original S3K way for Tails, so at least it's reasonably consistent within the context of his own story.
     
  19. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    Perhaps an MP3 patch in similar fashion to Sonic 1 SAGE 2010 Edition? Using the SonMP3 addon?
     
  20. That One Jig

    That One Jig

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    That wouldn't be feasible. First off, I'm not sure if SonMP3 is even compatible with S3K as of now. Even if it was, that wouldn't mean it'd be easy to apply to S3C.

    But that's besides the point. The fact is that the actual music wouldn't be in the game itself. You'd have to play the game through the Gens/GS emulator with MP3 files. I know that many people prefer to play their Genesis games on other emulators: Kega for PC, and a completely different emu for mobile (MD.emu, Gensoid). Most important of all, though, is that it wouldn't be compatible with the actual Sega Genesis hardware. The conditions to play the game with that music would be too harsh...any conditions would be too much, in fact.