Sonic 3 Complete

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. GeneHF

    GeneHF

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    <!--quoteo(post=389550:date=Dec 27 2009, 09:58 PM:name=SMTP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SMTP @ Dec 27 2009, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389550"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389506:date=Dec 27 2009, 05:43 PM:name=GeneHF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GeneHF @ Dec 27 2009, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389506"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-The HUD palette is a little messed up in Angel Island Zone. The back-shading of the letters is white.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thats actually normal...
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Really? Huh... I never noticed it until now.
     
  2. Drex

    Drex

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    <!--quoteo(post=389568:date=Dec 27 2009, 11:15 PM:name=Covarr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Covarr @ Dec 27 2009, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389568"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389397:date=Dec 27 2009, 07:47 AM:name=Hayate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayate @ Dec 27 2009, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389397"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Shouldn't the minibosses play the S&K theme when you fight them as Knuckles? To me the S3 Knuckles' theme and S3 miniboss theme were always related to each other (you can even hear the former played inside the latter), so hearing Knuckles' theme while playing as Knuckles just... doesn't seem right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually, what I think would be cool, is to play the S&K miniboss, boss, and invinciblity music if you're playing as Knuckles, and the S3 musics if you're playing as Sonic or Tails. I dunno how feasible this is, though, because it means having both songs in the game, and you'd still have to choose only one title screen music.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I second this.
     
  3. Puto

    Puto

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    <!--quoteo(post=389568:date=Dec 28 2009, 04:15 AM:name=Covarr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Covarr @ Dec 28 2009, 04:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389568"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389397:date=Dec 27 2009, 07:47 AM:name=Hayate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayate @ Dec 27 2009, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389397"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Shouldn't the minibosses play the S&K theme when you fight them as Knuckles? To me the S3 Knuckles' theme and S3 miniboss theme were always related to each other (you can even hear the former played inside the latter), so hearing Knuckles' theme while playing as Knuckles just... doesn't seem right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually, what I think would be cool, is to play the S&K miniboss, boss, and invinciblity music if you're playing as Knuckles, and the S3 musics if you're playing as Sonic or Tails. I dunno how feasible this is, though, because it means having both songs in the game, and you'd still have to choose only one title screen music.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    For the record, the S&K miniboss theme is still in the game (the song was there twice in S3K), and still plays when Eggman steals the Master Emerald.
     
  4. Hayate

    Hayate

    Tech Member
    <!--quoteo(post=389568:date=Dec 28 2009, 04:15 AM:name=Covarr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Covarr @ Dec 28 2009, 04:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389568"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dunno how feasible this is, though, because it means having both songs in the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Both soundtracks already exist in the game, since the S3&K ROM is just the S3 ROM slapped on the end of the S&K one.

    The only reason I had trouble with them was because I was too lazy to find out how to change the bank for an individual track, so I copied the tracks themselves from one location to another and there wasn't enough room in a particular bank for all of them. Since Tiddles is using the disassembly it was probably easy to change the banks.
     
  5. Aquaslash

    Aquaslash

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    Someone had the idea of using the S&K miniboss for the actual fights, but using the s3 miniboss for the Knuckles fight. That makes sense IMO since it'd be like building up to the final confrontation.
     
  6. Hayate

    Hayate

    Tech Member
    IMO I'd stick with the S3 miniboss theme, but use the S&K Knuckles theme for the Knuckles fight. If it wasn't for having to add an extra sound test number, I'd be doing that right now.
     
  7. Overlord

    Overlord

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    S3 themes for everything. :)
     
  8. PicklePower

    PicklePower

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    Speaking of the early Sonic 3C credits music, does anyone have an MP3 of it?
     
  9. Andlabs

    Andlabs

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    Writing my own MD/Genesis sound driver :D
    <!--quoteo(post=389745:date=Dec 28 2009, 07:28 PM:name=PicklePower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PicklePower @ Dec 28 2009, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389745"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Speaking of the early Sonic 3C credits music, does anyone have an MP3 of it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://music.sonicretro.org/Production/Sonic%203C%200517%20Ending%20Medley.mp3" target="_blank">Enjoy.</a>
     
  10. PicklePower

    PicklePower

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    <!--quoteo(post=389746:date=Dec 28 2009, 06:30 PM:name=Andlabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andlabs @ Dec 28 2009, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389746"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389745:date=Dec 28 2009, 07:28 PM:name=PicklePower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PicklePower @ Dec 28 2009, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389745"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Speaking of the early Sonic 3C credits music, does anyone have an MP3 of it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://music.sonicretro.org/Production/Sonic%203C%200517%20Ending%20Medley.mp3" target="_blank">Enjoy.</a>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thankyouthankyouthankyou. This also deserves to be on the wiki.
     
  11. Andlabs

    Andlabs

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    Writing my own MD/Genesis sound driver :D
    <!--quoteo(post=389787:date=Dec 28 2009, 09:21 PM:name=PicklePower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PicklePower @ Dec 28 2009, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389787"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389746:date=Dec 28 2009, 06:30 PM:name=Andlabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andlabs @ Dec 28 2009, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389746"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389745:date=Dec 28 2009, 07:28 PM:name=PicklePower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PicklePower @ Dec 28 2009, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389745"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Speaking of the early Sonic 3C credits music, does anyone have an MP3 of it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://music.sonicretro.org/Production/Sonic%203C%200517%20Ending%20Medley.mp3" target="_blank">Enjoy.</a>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thankyouthankyouthankyou. This also deserves to be on the wiki.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Unreleased_Music#Sonic_3" target="_blank">That's where I got it from =P</a> (I also made that particular rip and a few others on that page.)
     
  12. PicklePower

    PicklePower

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    <!--quoteo(post=389789:date=Dec 28 2009, 08:23 PM:name=Andlabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andlabs @ Dec 28 2009, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389789"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389787:date=Dec 28 2009, 09:21 PM:name=PicklePower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PicklePower @ Dec 28 2009, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389787"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389746:date=Dec 28 2009, 06:30 PM:name=Andlabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andlabs @ Dec 28 2009, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389746"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389745:date=Dec 28 2009, 07:28 PM:name=PicklePower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PicklePower @ Dec 28 2009, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389745"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Speaking of the early Sonic 3C credits music, does anyone have an MP3 of it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://music.sonicretro.org/Production/Sonic%203C%200517%20Ending%20Medley.mp3" target="_blank">Enjoy.</a>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thankyouthankyouthankyou. This also deserves to be on the wiki.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Unreleased_Music#Sonic_3" target="_blank">That's where I got it from =P</a> (I also made that particular rip and a few others on that page.)
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ah, well heck. That needs to be on the main Sonic 3c too. Looked all over for that.
     
  13. Azu

    Azu

    I must be stupid. Member
    The only S3 theme I hate was the Super Sonic them. God.
     
  14. SwissCM

    SwissCM

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    <!--quoteo(post=389843:date=Dec 29 2009, 03:34 PM:name=Azu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azu @ Dec 29 2009, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389843"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only S3 theme I hate was the Super Sonic them. God.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It makes an <I>awesome</I> ring tone.
     
  15. Drex

    Drex

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    Not imo. Now, if you had said S3 min-boss music then I'd have agreed with you adding that it was mine 2 years ago.

    |
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    V: D=
     
  16. Ravenfreak

    Ravenfreak

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    The two S3 themes I hate are Knuckles' theme and the miniboss theme. >.> They are the worse 16-bit Sonic songs. But nice job on this hack. ^^
     
  17. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    <!--quoteo(post=389374:date=:name=SOTI)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SOTI) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389374"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps one day it'll be possible to make the Death Egg crashing on the mountain part of the Sonic & Knuckles title screen its own cutscene, then going to MHZ after that (omitting the rest of the title screen stuff).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's a pretty nice solution. I hadn't thought of that. I might see if I can put that together sometime.

    <!--quoteo(post=389376:date=:name=SwissCM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SwissCM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389376"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6. Add Knuckles' glide ability to competition mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is definitely on my wanted list.

    <!--quoteo(post=389506:date=:name=GeneHF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GeneHF) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389506"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-The HUD palette is a little messed up in Angel Island Zone. The back-shading of the letters is white.
    -The music for Flying Battery Zone Act 2 doesn't begin playing after beating the boss and breaking the egg capsule during the cinematic. I don't know if you made this intentional or not.
    -Knuckles' palette is a little off in Hidden Palace Zone (the shoes)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Number two is deliberate and has been done to all zones. It's not so noticable in the Sonic 3 half because you only got a brief (and rather pointless IMO) burst of the zone music, which Sonic 3 alone never had to begin with. Mushroom Hill is the only one where I still think twice about having removed it because it's quite a long scene, but ultimately I preferred to keep it consistent, as S3K never was - some zones still never had the post-complete music added (LBZ2 for Knuckles, SSZ for Sonic, and LRZ3 had it on a long delay for no obvious reason.)

    Numbers one and three I've confirmed are the same in the original game. I kept doing this while I was testing actually - I'd notice something off and think "Oops, did I do that?" only to realise it was there all along and I hadn't noticed it.

    <!--quoteo(post=389397:date=:name=Hayate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayate) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389397"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Please, please fix that damn Hyper Sonic in MGZ2 boss bug. The one where it glitches up the graphics and then kills you. I wouldn't mind if you let the glitchy graphics stay, but at least fix the death. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This was a perfect example of the above - I always used hyper sparingly in the original, and I did a lot of testing for the speedup music change in MGZ due to nearby invincibility, speed shoes and a lot of rings in MGZ1... well, anyway, suffice it to say I had to go back and check this was in the original because I hadn't seen it before, or I'd forgotten it if I had. :)

    I'm guessing there's some major engine nastiness causing this, with the crushing ceiling magic not being completely cleared before the boss. The simplest solution might be just to slow Sonic down - something like a spinning top to the right of a starpost that you need to have break an additional barrier into the next section perhaps?

    I've yet to read even one single thing about object layout editing, so it'd certainly be a while before I get around to such a thing.

    <!--quoteo(post=389397:date=:name=Hayate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayate) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389397"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Shouldn't the minibosses play the S&K theme when you fight them as Knuckles? To me the S3 Knuckles' theme and S3 miniboss theme were always related to each other (you can even hear the former played inside the latter), so hearing Knuckles' theme while playing as Knuckles just... doesn't seem right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's not exactly this, but a patch for the next version will allow the S&K miniboss theme to be retained for all minibosses and the Sonic 3 miniboss theme to be used for only the Knuckles fight. It wouldn't take too much more to do it this way either, though.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Various ideas about using both S3 and S&K themes in the same game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->To use all of them, or a larger number than I'm already doing, there would need to be some more slots allocated for music. I don't know how to do it already, but I've no doubt it's possible, and there should be enough spare slots at the end of the list to accommodate everything.

    If you only wanted to use one of the Sonic 3 miniboss or Sonic & Knuckles miniboss themes, you could reallocate track $18 to something else - vanilla S3K doesn't use this at all apart from resuming from a drown timer during a boss (which is a daft idea anyway since the way it retrieves the correct music <I>outside</I> of a boss also works perfectly well <I>during</I> a boss). If you based it on my version you'd have to swap out the two places I changed to use $18, which is for the FBZ2 Wing Fortress reprise boss and Eggman's master emerald theft.

    <!--quoteo(post=389713:date=:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389713"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO I'd stick with the S3 miniboss theme, but use the S&K Knuckles theme for the Knuckles fight. If it wasn't for having to add an extra sound test number, I'd be doing that right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The problem with using the S&K Knuckles theme in combination with either the S3 Knuckles or miniboss themes is that they both want to use DAC samples B2/B3, which are different between the two games. If you don't mind the clap instrument sounding a bit strange in one or the other though, it should be fine. Other than that, I don't know if there might be an unused DAC entry somewhere that could be repointed to the other version of the sample, so that one could then edit one of the tracks to look for the new entry.
     
  18. Hayate

    Hayate

    Tech Member
    <!--quoteo(post=389896:date=Dec 29 2009, 02:03 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 29 2009, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389896"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389397:date=:name=Hayate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayate) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389397"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Please, please fix that damn Hyper Sonic in MGZ2 boss bug. The one where it glitches up the graphics and then kills you. I wouldn't mind if you let the glitchy graphics stay, but at least fix the death. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This was a perfect example of the above - I always used hyper sparingly in the original, and I did a lot of testing for the speedup music change in MGZ due to nearby invincibility, speed shoes and a lot of rings in MGZ1... well, anyway, suffice it to say I had to go back and check this was in the original because I hadn't seen it before, or I'd forgotten it if I had. :)

    I'm guessing there's some major engine nastiness causing this, with the crushing ceiling magic not being completely cleared before the boss. The simplest solution might be just to slow Sonic down - something like a spinning top to the right of a starpost that you need to have break an additional barrier into the next section perhaps?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As far as I know, it's nothing to do with how fast Sonic gets into the arena - I think it will always happen if you do a Hyper Sonic dash above the screen while waiting for Robotnik to come down. I haven't tested this thoroughly, but it's happened enough times to give me an intuitive guess on that. :P

    It's certainly got nothing to do with crushing - crushing can only occur when the thing on top of Sonic is an object, not terrain. That's why there are invisible block objects placed in various places around the Sonic games, as if they aren't there, he simply goes into the ceiling. The reason he dies is actually due to a bottomless pit - the boss usually does something to nullify the "die in a bottomless pit" logic, but (AFAIK) it never seems to stop the death sound being played even if this glitch doesn't occur.

    <!--quoteo(post=389896:date=Dec 29 2009, 02:03 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 29 2009, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389896"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389713:date=:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389713"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO I'd stick with the S3 miniboss theme, but use the S&K Knuckles theme for the Knuckles fight. If it wasn't for having to add an extra sound test number, I'd be doing that right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The problem with using the S&K Knuckles theme in combination with either the S3 Knuckles or miniboss themes is that they both want to use DAC samples B2/B3, which are different between the two games. If you don't mind the clap instrument sounding a bit strange in one or the other though, it should be fine. Other than that, I don't know if there might be an unused DAC entry somewhere that could be repointed to the other version of the sample, so that one could then edit one of the tracks to look for the new entry.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The S3 themes with the S&K DAC samples sound pretty refreshing to me, I wouldn't mind switching back to those and bringing the S&K Knuckles theme in as an addition.
     
  19. Aquaslash

    Aquaslash

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    <!--quoteo(post=389896:date=Dec 29 2009, 09:03 AM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 29 2009, 09:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389896"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not exactly this, but a patch for the next version will allow the S&K miniboss theme to be retained for all minibosses and the Sonic 3 miniboss theme to be used for only the Knuckles fight. It wouldn't take too much more to do it this way either, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yeah, I like this idea. I'd have never thought of it if someone didn't mention it to me, but it makes perfect sense.
     
  20. Overlord

    Overlord

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    <!--quoteo(post=389871:date=Dec 29 2009, 08:52 AM:name=SwissCM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SwissCM @ Dec 29 2009, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389871"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389843:date=Dec 29 2009, 03:34 PM:name=Azu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azu @ Dec 29 2009, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389843"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only S3 theme I hate was the Super Sonic them. God.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It makes an <I>awesome</I> ring tone.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Holy shit, why did I never think of this? Doing that now =P