Sonic 3 Complete

It is - thank you very much.

The MGZ2 one is mainly to do with the pillars blocking Knuckles being completely absent in Sonic 3.



The Relief is still too high for Knuckles, but that "GTGT" collision object is also missing from the layout, which means he can just climb up its face. The same is true of Reliefs throughout the zone, which is one of the main reasons I've kept the S&K layouts for Knuckles there. There's a missing up-signpost a little earlier too, and Knuckles' run through the crushing section to the boss is fairly different in the Sonic 3 layout - somewhat easier since there's just a smashable pillar instead of a Relief and door in the middle of it. But it's a bit too easy - you tend to end up waiting for ages for the layers to align enough to make jumps. Have a go with the patch option, see what you think. (And enjoy my creative workaround to prevent Knuckles going through Sonic's way in that version.)

I made a script to list out the object layout data so I could determine what did change, since I imagined there wouldn't be much - but there's a lot. There's something in every zone, even AIZ1. Sometimes it's a few extra collision objects, sometimes it's a set of spikes or a starpost being a few pixels to the side, sometimes it's just filling out Knuckles' pathway (if you think S3K CNZ is bad for Knuckles, you should see the Sonic 3 alone version - which of course you can patch in - although perversely, it ends up being about the only zone he can complete without interference on the raw S3 layout).

Here's a few of the changes that are noticable:

• Some spikes are added to the left of the chamber in Carnival Night 2 where Knuckles' route is meant to split off, presumably to stop him just climbing the wall. A bit of a token gesture considering how easy it is for him to change route before that...
• The Sonic 3 version of Icecap 2 is missing one of those pink bouncy platforms on the higher route right after Sonic's start. This means it's impossible for Sonic to reach the very top route at the start without Tails (and I don't know if he can carry him all the way.) He can still get there by backtracking later I believe.
• Also in Icecap 2, at the end where you can go up high to a load of rings and a giant ring, the ring columns go higher in the S3 layout. You won't see either of these Icecap ones in 3C unless you patch it, since I went with the S&K version for Icecap 2.
• One you will see is in Launch Base 2 for Knuckles. The area where he floods the lake and goes back up to Sonic's area is quite different - it flows much faster using the old Sonic 3 layout. So fast, in fact, that you could beat the water up to the top of the lake, which looks really stupid. To combat this, I've made the water rise faster unless you use the old S&K layout. The water already did rise faster if you broke the pipe while super/hyper, presumably for the same reason - that speed is now used even if you're normal on the S3 layout. (Incidentally, that pipe doesn't flood anything in the original layout - it's just classed as a regular blocking object. Presumably the flooding subtype wasn't implemented in Sonic 3.)

One non-obvious change is that any grounded egg prisons are placed within the Sonic 3 object layouts, but aren't included in the S&K ones, where they are placed procedurally. This may have something to do with avoiding bugs like the one in HCZ2 in S3 alone, where you can get to the egg prison too soon. Knuckles' button at the end of that act is changed too - it's created by the Knuckles object in S3K but part of the layout in S3. Perhaps a similar situation could occur there.

The Sonic 3 version, like the previous games, has a bright white background; it's a duller grey in S[3]&K, which I assume was done to make the white text on the Super Emerald version more readable; that darker background has been retained for the Super Emerald screen so they now differ. Also, in Sonic 3, the Chaos Emeralds flash every frame; it's less frequent in S[3]&K. This difference also applies to the save screen, but I haven't changed that, because it also affects Super Emeralds on Data Select, and they look a bit weird if they're flashing so fast.

Effexor gives a good example I hadn't noticed. The place I remember noticing it when I was young was in the small underwater "bowl" by the final giant ring. You can see it in a few other places where the bottom of Sonic's route is close to the top of Knuckles' route. I haven't removed any of these flames - so Knuckles will still see them - but they won't spawn now if the current water level is higher than they are.

I didn't notice this either until I was adapting that object for the continue screen.

The easiest way to see it is to start up Knuckles' Sky Sanctuary. When EggRobo comes for Knuckles, you'll notice that his grabber arm is in a sort of open, square shape, and it changes to a more angled, clasped shape when he grabs Knuckles. The same happens when grabbing the Master Emerald in Hidden Palace. But for the final boss, the arm is in its unclasped, square shape while still apparently holding the emerald. That's now been changed.

The first thing is to take a break for a little while.

There are still quite a few things I want to do, but I try not to go into it too much in case I end up not doing something and disappointing someone. I already mentioned that I'm hoping to do some work on bringing back the old Sonic 1-3 style monitor interaction, so I hope I'll be able to get that sorted out.

I probably won't do a great deal with Carnival Night 2, honestly - it's kind of a joke as Knuckles, sure, but it's a nice nod to the game manual's idea that Knuckles' ability to dig out different routes should make his life easier, rather than always leading him into some torturous hell-hole compared to the easy ride Sonic gets by being able to jump over conveniently placed obstacles. Leaving Sonic's route open gives Knuckles a bit more gameplay there if you want it, and you don't need to worry about blocking yourself from reaching his normal exit point any more. I will think about blocking off the boss, but it's now not somewhere you're likely to reach accidentally, since it takes a well-timed jump to climb up the final chute from the start point, and as soon as you go right a bit at the bottom, it's locked off.

Moving Flying Battery is on the same list of things that the post-LBZ cutscene and Sonic 3 layouts used to be on, which is that I want to do it but I don't have a clear idea in my head of how I'd like the whole thing to hang together. The most significant part of that is still the loose end of tying Mushroom Valley to Sandopolis somehow. So I'll probably have a go eventually, but it might not show up for some time or at all.

I have this joke transition in my head where Flying Battery flies over at the end of MHZ again anyway, and Sonic just looks bored because he's already done it, and runs off. I wouldn't seriously do that though. For me, the most exciting prospect of moving Flying Battery to its original position is the opportunity to set it at night.

I've been wondering about just letting him keep it after Death Egg in most cases, and just scratching it out of the worst ending (where it shows up for two seconds and then mysteriously floats in space). The only time he really needs to drop it is for an emeralded-up Tails, who won't get another opportunity to claim it back in Doomsday. Why would he drop it sometimes but not others? I don't really know (unlucky with what the Eggmobile explosions happened to hit?) but I think it's probably more understandable than him mysteriously regaining it.

I don't know - it's been suggested before, but it's not such a big moment in Knuckles' story. Plus, I rationalise the darkening sky as "something to do with the Death Egg" (fairly easily fobbed off, aren't I?) which ceases to apply for Knuckles.

The alternative here is that we go for a complete reversal of S3&K and chop that boss out for Knuckles. The unfinished Knuckles bits in S3 alone seem to indicate that the laser columns boss should lead straight into the post-level bombing event. But you know, taking things out is no fun.

I've heard of this - but I have no idea why S3K should work and S3C shouldn't in this respect. [Un]fortunately, the DOS/Windows versions of those emulators I've tested don't seem to have a problem, which makes it difficult for me to work on it.

Well, you CAN do that with (quasi-)legitimate cheats and debug in S3C... and the old break-tons-of-super-monitors-and-reset-into-S&K will still work too. But if you did it via some other method, particularly if it's new to S3C and doesn't involve debug, please let me know and I'll try to sort it out!

By the way, try finishing the game with Tails in S&K mode. It's not fascinating, but it gets mildly confused.

I should've sorted that out when I did the other Launch Base stuff really. I can think of one fairly straightforward solution off the top of my head, if you don't mind him walking into a wall instead of cheerfully ending his life. But then you'd lose the ability to fly after Sonic in the hope that this time, just this time, one of those pillars will be solid, or you can stay in the air a little longer...

Yeah, this is another thing I want to sort out eventually. Again probably not for a while. Since he's now the only character without an intro, it seems only fair. I want to give him a slightly different continue screen too, really. I'd forgotten he shared Sonic's until I was working on it recently.

I might well rig something together as an option sooner or later. I probably wouldn't have it work quite like the original though, I'd want to treat the super status as an extra hit above shield/rings, so you don't lose anything but your transformation in that case (along with the ability to retransform for the rest of the zone).

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions, folks.

 

Exactly that. There might be one more blocking pillar in the S3 layout to ruin it, but I can't remember whether it's Knuckles-only.

That's pretty good, probably slightly better than the only realistic idea I'd thought of (which was using one of the swingy-spinny-vine affairs to fling you up like the CNZ cannon).

Regarding transitions in general, I'm wary of going too far off into my own script - remember that what I've added after Launch Base is made almost completely out of an existing game sequence, just with a few effects added and some timing and camerawork tweaked to make it fit. The same is true of Knuckles in Angel Island. I'm not likely to add significant additional intermission content unless something else requires it, as moving Flying Battery would. I might still look at more mundane solutions similar to the one I put forward of Robotnik keeping the emerald, since this seems to fit with what's established in the following scenes better than the existing scenario, without requiring creative additions.

Regarding Tails in the Eggmobile - yeah, it seems like they should both be able to get in - I always thought much the same. On the other hand, though, I'm trying to stick primarily to the Sonic 3 gameplay idea of Tails not being present on the Death Egg platform - which is now implemented - so I don't really want him to just go with you.

 

Well spotted, thanks for the report.

This appears to be a bug from Sonic 3 alone that was fixed in S3&K, but has been reintroduced by reusing the Sonic 3 object layout. The starpost is a lot closer to the boss room in the original layout, and sprinting straight towards the boss when respawning there causes similar confusion to Robotnik's face mistakenly showing up for Knuckles in Mushroom Hill - the art doesn't all load in time and stops loading at all.

I'll fix it in a future revision. For now, if it's bothersome, you can avoid it by patching in the S&K layout, or taking a lazy stroll from the starpost to the boss.