Considering how this MOD is called Sonic 3 Complete and the S&K levels are the completed versions of those levels, I prefer the S&K editions remain for the default layouts.
I preffer Sonic 3 layouts better. Yellow horizontal spring instead of 1-up monitor in Hidro City Zone Act 2 ftw!! :v: Sonic 3 layouts are way more challanging.
As I said before I really wanted the Sonic 3 layouts. Personally I would like it, and think that it's better like this, to be like this in your work at default. As implied by the name (Sonic 3 Complete) and for the modifications you are doing, like just left Sonic 3 on the stage "cards", S3 mini-boss music, S3 final boss etc... etc.. , it's really bringing "Sonic 3" to "Sonic 3 and Knuckles", so for me it only makes sense do this work at max possible. The negative points you stated, don't seem negative for me at all, just already expected consequences for it to happen. But of course if most of people feel unconformable, I agree on an optional patch for it. As always Tiddles, you work is very welcome and your effort to share it with us as mutual sonic fans is really appreciated. Thank you very much!
Well, just about a year since the first release, here's a new version of Sonic 3 Complete. Get it from the <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic 3 Complete (hack)" target="_blank" style="background: url(http://info.sonicretro.org/images/5/50/Reticon.png) right no-repeat; padding-right: 20px; border-bottom: 1px dotted #3366BB; color: #3366BB; cursor:pointer; text-decoration:none;" class="wiki">Sonic 3 Complete (hack)</a> wiki page. If you're thinking about using any patch options, you might want to try the Web Customiser, which I've mentioned a bit more about below. Here's a quick summary of the highlights: New Controls for Super Transformation There was considerable sadness about the use of a fixed two-button mechanism for turning Super or Hyper. I've now replaced this with something else that I hope is more popular. Here's how it works: first, pick a button and press it to jump. If you then press the same button to double-jump, you'll perform the normal double-jump move - shield jump, flight, glide, whatever. If you press a different button to double-jump, you'll transform or detransform, if you can; otherwise it's another normal double-jump. The good news is that if you liked or just got used to C+B, well, it still works as part of the above (and you still need to use exactly that combination in debug mode). And if you still hate it, there's still a patch to go back to S3&K's original handling. That takes away the need to press multiple buttons, and it takes away the idea of it being tied to specific buttons, which I think were the main complaints. Let me know what you think! Sonic 3 Layouts By default, Sonic 3 levels mostly use their Sonic 3 object and ring layouts in this version - even for Knuckles. If you play as Knuckles in a Sonic 3 layout, some extra code jiggles a few things around to keep the necessary objects in place on his path, so he shouldn't get stuck. This means that all characters can have their rear ends handed to them by the spring in Hydrocity 2 and the everything in Launch Base. Splendid. The default setup is actually a mixture of Sonic 3 and S&K layouts that I felt worked well. There are patches to use only the S3 versions, and of course a patch to only use the S&K versions. I've also added a couple of patches that will break the game, and are for entertainment/research use only: you can make all zones use the layout specified in Sonic 3 (which means the S&K ones are empty, excluding MHZ and FBZ, which are sparsely and incorrectly populated), and you can turn off the magical layout manipulation that allows Knuckles through the Sonic 3 layouts, if you want to see how broken that looks (it's pretty similar to forcing Knuckles in Sonic 3 in S&KC, if you've ever tried that - you probably want to use one of the patches to send Knuckles through exclusively S3 layouts if you do this). Cutscenery About a million years ago, SOTI suggested fashioning bits of the S&K title screen into a cutscene to sit between Sonic/Tails' version of Launch Base and Mushroom Valley. (Yes, valley. What of it?) This release does exactly that. Knuckles' S&K intro, which was already moved to Angel Island in the last release, now leads directly into gameplay like Sonic's intro, instead of restarting the level. Bonus Stages and Continues I don't know about you, but right from day one, I thought that the way you get continues from the slot machine bonus stage is stupid. Get one ring if you have fifty already? You can't then get another one until you change act or lose your rings in the main level? (Actually, I didn't find out about that last one until I was looking into it, but still.) In this version, unless you patch it back again, you need to collect fifty rings within the slot machine bonus stage itself. That does make continues quite a bit harder to come by, but there are some mitigations working in your favour: firstly, while you can still only get one continue per bonus stage, you don't have to lose your rings in the main level to be able to come back and get another. Secondly, losing your rings in the slot machine doesn't take away from your progress towards a continue. Thirdly - and this one applies even if you patch back to the old logic - rings from the slot machine itself can now give a continue; you don't need to get one of the outside ones. I've also added a HUD element in the slot bonus stage to show your progress towards a continue. This is a separate patch option, because it's useful even if you use the original method of gaining continues: it'll show you if you've already collected the continue from another attempt, and won't be able to gain another. Web customiser All these configurable things have led to a bewildering 31 separate patch options. That could be a bit of a pain if you want to apply multiple patches. So I've made a web thing which will allow you to select which options you want and download a pre-patched ROM. Why look bewildered at IPS patches or a million Y/N questions when you can be confused by an HTML form instead? Here it is. Give it a try, see how it goes. I've stuck the IPS patches on the Wiki anyway in case there's a problem. Miscellaneous Things There's a bunch of new bugfixes and what-have-you. The full change list is below. One thing I'd be interested to hear your opinion on is a new font I'm using in the Level Select screen - I designed it on a whim because I was tired of looking at the Sonic 2 font, and it's intended to look like the S3 title card font - well, as far as that's possible in an 8x8 font anyway. It might disappear from there again in the future, or it might spread its influence to the save screen. Who knows? One final note... I wouldn't rely on using any savestates from S3&K or previous S3C versions any more. Actual saved games will work fine, but you will encounter music and sound issues eventually if playing from an old savestate. Here's the full list of changes since v100404. If you want to see everything that's changed since the original S3&K, it's on the Wiki. Code (Text): Bugfixes over previous S3C versions ----------------------------------- Fixed various music speed/music resumption related bugs, both from the original game and caused by previous changes to super music. Fixed issue where chaos emerald cheat would block super transformation if you already had one or more chaos emeralds. Features -------- Double-jump super-transformation changes: press the same button as you jumped with to perform a normal double-jump; press any other jump button to turn super or hyper if available. The old C+B mechanism still works as a subset of this, and is still required in debug mode due to limited button availability. You now need to collect 50 rings within the slot bonus stage itself to get a continue. (Can be patched back to the original setup) Rings lost within the bonus stage will not take away from your collection total for the continue. You can now do this in every slot bonus stage. Added a HUD element to the Slot Machine bonus stage to show progress towards a continue. (Can be patched out.) Added an extra cutscene after Launch Base. (Can be patched out.) When paused and level select is enabled, the A button now exits to different places: 1P level/Special Stage: level select Grand Prix: GP results Match Race: Match Race setup Time Attack: Time Attack setup While playing a special stage through Blue Sphere, pressing B while paused will return to the Blue Sphere select screen. Pressing B on the Blue Sphere menu screen will now return to the title screen. Your progress will be retained until you reset or turn off the game. Knuckles' intro cutscene in Angel Island now leads directly into gameplay, instead of restarting the level. Super music changes now consistently have no effect during bosses. After Hidden Palace, Knuckles is replaced by Robotnik on Sonic's continue screen Minor alterations to the Icecap intro to maintain day-night cycle consistency (can be patched back) Screen now pulls up after the CNZ1 miniboss for the signpost drop New level select font, designed to be similar in style to the title card font Sonic 3-ification ----------------- Selective use of original Sonic 3 layouts, most notably Hydrocity 2 and Launch Base. (Patches are supplied to always use the original Sonic 3 or S&K layouts). In a Sonic and Tails game, Tails does not appear for the final Launch Base bosses. Player 2 can press a button to make him appear. (If Big Arm is patched out of this sequence, Tails will always appear.) Mushroom Hill is now Mushroom Valley (can be patched back to the old name) Sonic 3-style Continue screen text Special Stage results screen for Chaos Emerald stages is now styled much more like the version from Sonic 3 alone. Bugfixes over S3&K ------------------ Knuckles is no longer blocked from his normal Carnival Night exit when arriving from above Drowning timer resets when turning hyper, along with music if necessary The slot bonus stage now awards a continue through rings collected in the slot machine as well as around the sides. Knuckles no longer turns into Sonic at the end of the slot machine bonus stage. Various double jump fixes for Sonic, mostly involving unintentionally going into a slow bubble bounce by double jumping right before a bubble shield activated. Fixed bug where a time over would not restart the starpost timer after continuing from a game over. Fixed Big Arm code to release Sonic from the arm after the boss is defeated - this was firing in the wrong situation, making Sonic always drop to standing after clearing the boss, but leaving him stuck if Tails killed the boss while Sonic was held. Fixed occasional misalignment of continue screen Fixed wrong tiles on Continue screen if you hit Game Over with Super/Hyper Sonic Fire sprites no longer appear underwater in Angel Island It is no longer possible to repeatedly double-jump in the Hydrocity fan tubes Incorrect grabber arm sprite on DEZ final boss fixed - now uses the latched rather than open variant. Fixed jittering screen lock after Marble Garden 1 miniboss New patch options (other than those mentioned elsewhere): ----------------- Go back to using invincibility music for super/hyper transformations. (Still doesn't play during a boss.) Require 50 rings instead of 20 for a bonus stage. Always play Gumball bonus stages. Web customiser to download a pre-patched version.
Why don't you make power-ups to flip if character touches them from beneath? I like dropping then on the ground much more than just breaking them. I believe that only reason for this change was Death egg zone with it's anti-gravity switchings.
I want to do that in the future. I wanted to do it for this release, but I wanted to have this released a lot sooner and I didn't want to hold it up any further for that.
I believe that too. Especially after seeing monitor code with the reverse gravity flag, that were never used? They ran out of time, I am sure. Also, having a monitor fall at the same time as flipping gravity would cause what behaviour? Especially when one flag controls the global gravity direction, while the room you just left was not designed for another gravity setting
I like the new Launch Base cutscene. For next release, how about one at the end of the final boss which shows how Robotnik was able to grab the Master Emerald again after dropping it.
Just played it now - I noticed a bug in AIZ1. I got the first speed shoes, then the invincibility, and sped through to the burning cutscene, and I still had speed shoes on right up till the boss, even though I waited and it shouldn't have been on. Excellent work though, looking forward to playing it more!
Did you actually retain the full effects of speed shoes (I.e. the extra speed and acceleration) all the way through, or did it just keep the fast music when it shouldn't have? Disregard, found it: repacking a 101226 release with that fixed. Should be out within 24 hours unless anything else happens to turn up. I should be able to pop out an IPS patch too, so people with custom builds don't have to recustomise. OK, v101226 is out. It fixes the bug that allowed you to keep super sneakers if you picked up invincibility while you had them. There are no other changes, and all the existing v101222 patches still work. If you want to upgrade an already-customised version from 101222 from 101226, there's an IPS patch to do it. Thanks for the report! And sorry for the inconvenience!
Not sure if anyone has already suggested this as an option, but, you know how in Sonic 3 (original), on Launch Base Act 2, the "Final" boss makes the sky turn to night and the music changes? I always thought that effect would work well for the Knuckles version of the boss, too, instead of just one boss continuing to the next without any sort of interesting transition. Just an idea for yet another option. :P
People aren't giving this enough credit, and I have no idea why! This is absolutely wonderful. The job done with the cutscenes at Angel Island and Launch Base is so well done that I would believe you if you said you took them from an early prototype which you somehow managed to find. I really can't put it into words, it all just feels so 'right' that it's like the game is now finally what it was always supposed to be. Given the intended goal of this project, I think that's the best kind of compliment I can give you. Re: the level select: It looks great, and it feels refreshing to see what's essentially the last remaining piece of Sonic 2's graphical style shot dead. I vote yes to applying the font to the Data Select. I'm interested in what you said about the discrepancies in the Sonic 3 stages between the two games. How much do they actually differ? I'm well familiar with the significant nerf done to Launch Base, as well as the odd object here and there (like the spring/1-Up in HCZ2), but are there more subtle, yet large changes which I've never noticed? I'm particularly bewildered by your words from an earlier post, where you state that "the section where Knuckles' route to the boss splits off in Marble Garden 2, for instance, looks quite different architecturally between the two versions". If you have the time, I'd love to see a comparison between these more minor changes. I couldn't figure out some of your other changes, so if you could shed some light on the following: Code (Text): Special Stage results screen for Chaos Emerald stages is now styled much more like the version from Sonic 3 alone. I'll be honest, I can't tell the difference, though I haven't really looked at them side by side. :P The art looks to be the same, so I assume it's down to the placement on the screen? How is it different from the Super Emerald results screen? Code (Text): Fire sprites no longer appear underwater in Angel Island This is classified as a bugfix. Are there actually spots in the original layout where you can see fire sprites underwater? Code (Text): Incorrect grabber arm sprite on DEZ final boss fixed - now uses the latched rather than open variant. No clue on this one. So what's next in line? Fixing up Knuckles' game? CNZ2 in particular is pretty broken, it'd be cool if you could block Knuckles from entering Sonic's path (Maybe simply by inserting solid blocks, like in Ice Cap?) and actually give him a boss. Do you have any plans to reinstate Flying Battery as the fifth stage? Add a pair of Knuckles' teleporters to it? Changing Sonic's snowboard to a metallic door? Making Knuckles' Ice Cap 1 start with the snow that piles up during Sonic's quest already on the floor? I could go on forever, but I don't want it to sound like I'm basically telling you what you should do next. That would be kind of rude! :v:
They are outdated emulators, but Genesis Plus and Generator for Mac OSX both just start up Blue Sphere when Sonic 3 Compete is opened.
Oh jeez, that new cuscene is sexy. Nice to see the S&K intro thing being put to good use. Also, any plans on an intro cutscene for Tails alone? At the part in Act 2 where you hit the switch to lower the water level. In the original, there was a fire sprite underneath it in the water.
I was testing the rom using those emulators because I was using a PPC mac at the time. PPC macs are incompatible with Kega Fusion, which requires Intel macs.
I wonder if you'd be crazy enough to allow Big Arms, the Giant Eggman and Knuckles all allow to inflict damage to super forms. I loved that about Sonic 3 and later Sonic 3C 0517. Shame the Knuckles fight has to be as short as it is too, though I think letting him go Super for eight more hits would be pretty insane. Sonic 3 Hard Mode? I love the cutscene work and other stuff done to this. This is making Sonic 3 feel more complete than ever before.
