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Sonic 3 Complete

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    <!--quoteo(post=441460:date=Apr 12 2010, 08:36 AM:name=LordOfSquad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LordOfSquad @ Apr 12 2010, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441460">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441454:date=Apr 12 2010, 07:23 AM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 12 2010, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441454">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441443:date=Apr 12 2010, 08:40 AM:name=RedStripedShoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedStripedShoes @ Apr 12 2010, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441443">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441216:date=Apr 11 2010, 05:45 PM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 11 2010, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441216">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see what's wrong with the current remix. It's as official as you can get, and after all this hack is trying to stick to the official sources while polishing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, the official one is missing a lot of zones from Sonic & Knuckles, so it doesn't feel very "complete".
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So did the remix in Sonic 2, and it's officially complete.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->But the one we have is definitely unfinished and unpolished.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Now that's just a matter of oppinion.
     
  2. RedStripedShoes

    RedStripedShoes

    And I'm gone again. Member
    <!--quoteo(post=441467:date=Apr 12 2010, 09:05 AM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 12 2010, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441467">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441460:date=Apr 12 2010, 08:36 AM:name=LordOfSquad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LordOfSquad @ Apr 12 2010, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441460">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441454:date=Apr 12 2010, 07:23 AM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 12 2010, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441454">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441443:date=Apr 12 2010, 08:40 AM:name=RedStripedShoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedStripedShoes @ Apr 12 2010, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441443">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441216:date=Apr 11 2010, 05:45 PM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 11 2010, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441216">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see what's wrong with the current remix. It's as official as you can get, and after all this hack is trying to stick to the official sources while polishing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, the official one is missing a lot of zones from Sonic & Knuckles, so it doesn't feel very "complete".
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So did the remix in Sonic 2, and it's officially complete.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->But the one we have is definitely unfinished and unpolished.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Now that's just a matter of oppinion.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Except it's true. Which is why I urge everyone with experience in Genesis music mixing to get on it right away.
     
  3. amphobius

    amphobius

    doing more important things with my life Member
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    <!--quoteo(post=441501:date=Apr 12 2010, 05:21 PM:name=RedStripedShoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedStripedShoes @ Apr 12 2010, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441501">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441467:date=Apr 12 2010, 09:05 AM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 12 2010, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441467">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441460:date=Apr 12 2010, 08:36 AM:name=LordOfSquad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LordOfSquad @ Apr 12 2010, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441460">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441454:date=Apr 12 2010, 07:23 AM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 12 2010, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441454">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441443:date=Apr 12 2010, 08:40 AM:name=RedStripedShoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedStripedShoes @ Apr 12 2010, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441443">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441216:date=Apr 11 2010, 05:45 PM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 11 2010, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441216">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see what's wrong with the current remix. It's as official as you can get, and after all this hack is trying to stick to the official sources while polishing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, the official one is missing a lot of zones from Sonic & Knuckles, so it doesn't feel very "complete".
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So did the remix in Sonic 2, and it's officially complete.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->But the one we have is definitely unfinished and unpolished.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Now that's just a matter of oppinion.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Except it's true. Which is why I urge everyone with experience in Genesis music mixing to get on it right away.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The problem is that the SMPS format is difficult. There's the problem with replicating the songs—and I'm almost pretty sure no one's going to go through the tedious hex work themselves. In effect, you can create your mixes, but there's honestly no way they're going in unless someone says "Hi".

    Also no, in case you were thinking of getting me on the job. I'm a supporter of the official tune itself.
     
  4. RedStripedShoes

    RedStripedShoes

    And I'm gone again. Member
    Can't you (not you specifically DalekSam, the general "you") just copy pieces of the in-game music hex code and paste them together within the file that plays the end credits music?

    I have no idea if it even works that way, I'm just guessing.
     
  5. Tiddles

    Tiddles

    Diamond Dust Tech Member
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    Get in an accident and wake up in 1973
    Unfortunately it's not that simple. Doing that with an SMPS track is rather more complicated, both in terms of identifying all the correct source music data, then reprogramming it to fit in a new sequence (which may effectively amount to recreating it almost from scratch).

    As I said, I know very little about SMPS editing, so that's a brief, vague and possibly inaccurate summary, but hopefully it illustrates that it's much more fiddly than wave remixing as it's commonly done now.

    As to the merits of replacing the current track, it's one of those things I've always been a bit on the fence about. ICEknight puts the point for retaining the original well - it's the closest thing we have to an official mix and the scope of this project is to stick fairly closely to official content. On the other hand, there are a couple of flaky transitions, and some omissions - a good unofficial mix with some tidier transitions in particular, and possibly more zone representation, would be something I'd consider at the very least for an optional patch - should someone volunteer to take up the baton of creating such a thing in SMPS format.

    I think the thing that irks me most with the current end credits situation is that if you patch in the S&K main themes, you either have to have the 0517 credits with the wrong sting at the end, or the S&K credits with no Sonic 3 zone representation. It'd be nice, if nothing else, to have the 0517 version with the S&K sting grafted on as an option, and if I ever did start to look at SMPS editing, that might well be the first thing I'd try - though I still have no current plans to do so. (FWIW, the reverse of this, I.e. S&K credits zone sequence with the S3 sting on the end, can already be found in S&K beta 0525, and shouldn't be a problem to port over to complete the set.)
     
  6. Glisp

    Glisp

    That one weird guy that does stuff. Member
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    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    <!--quoteo(post=441504:date=Apr 12 2010, 12:27 PM:name=DalekSam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DalekSam @ Apr 12 2010, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441504">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441501:date=Apr 12 2010, 05:21 PM:name=RedStripedShoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedStripedShoes @ Apr 12 2010, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441501">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441467:date=Apr 12 2010, 09:05 AM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 12 2010, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441467">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441460:date=Apr 12 2010, 08:36 AM:name=LordOfSquad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LordOfSquad @ Apr 12 2010, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441460">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441454:date=Apr 12 2010, 07:23 AM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 12 2010, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441454">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441443:date=Apr 12 2010, 08:40 AM:name=RedStripedShoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedStripedShoes @ Apr 12 2010, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441443">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441216:date=Apr 11 2010, 05:45 PM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Apr 11 2010, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441216">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see what's wrong with the current remix. It's as official as you can get, and after all this hack is trying to stick to the official sources while polishing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, the official one is missing a lot of zones from Sonic & Knuckles, so it doesn't feel very "complete".
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So did the remix in Sonic 2, and it's officially complete.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->But the one we have is definitely unfinished and unpolished.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Now that's just a matter of oppinion.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Except it's true. Which is why I urge everyone with experience in Genesis music mixing to get on it right away.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The problem is that the SMPS format is difficult. There's the problem with replicating the songs—and I'm almost pretty sure no one's going to go through the tedious hex work themselves. In effect, you can create your mixes, but there's honestly no way they're going in unless someone says "Hi".

    Also no, in case you were thinking of getting me on the job. I'm a supporter of the official tune itself.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    I did a splice of what both Mixes might sound like together once in Audacity. (they were rips.) However, it has since been lost on my old Windows XP's now inaccessible HD. Can't even get my OS to boot up in any mode. Not even safe mode works. I just get a blue screen when the OS attempts to load. I might splice it again just for kicks later.
     
  7. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

    Arriving four years late. Member
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    Hmmmm. Knuckles isn't at the top of THAT pyramid.

    If you're really worried about consistency/authenticity, why not just use the Sonic 3 ending theme? I'd rather have a good tune than a crap medley. Of course, it'll be good if you get a medley that actually works, but otherwise, what's the point?
     
  8. Glisp

    Glisp

    That one weird guy that does stuff. Member
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    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    You know, I think it would be cool to actually have both credits sequences in the game. I'm not sure why but maybe just so it has some use, the Sonic 3 Ending theme and credits should play after the Launch Base Zone is completed, then the game resumes after the credits. Then after beating the SK half, the S3C theme and ending plays. Don't know why you'd want to do this as it disrupts the flow of the game but it would be very cool to see regardless. Perhaps the player could skip the credits that play before Mushroom Hill with the press of a button to compensate for this.

    I mean, it sounds like it would be pretty complex but it would also be kind of interesting to say the least.
     
  9. Effexor

    Effexor

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    Actually, RSS, all I have is the MP3s. All I'm doing is just cutting and pasting the parts you asked for (while trying as hard as possible to make the transitions match up) in Audacity, so I wouldn't have expected any fancy transitions. Also, eventhough you wanted all of the levels, you're still missing Carnival Night, Hidden Palace and Death Egg

    I, as well, support the 0517 version.
     
  10. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    <!--quoteo(post=441647:date=Apr 12 2010, 04:49 PM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ Apr 12 2010, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441647">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're really worried about consistency/authenticity, why not just use the Sonic 3 ending theme? I'd rather have a good tune than a crap medley. Of course, it'll be good if you get a medley that actually works, but otherwise, what's the point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I like that medley. It might have a few odd transitions, but that also happened with Sonic 2's.
     
  11. Solaris Paradox

    Solaris Paradox

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    On my butt in front of the computer. Where else?
    I'm working on working up the willpower to work on learning how to make my own Sonic fangames. Not quite there yet.
    I like the medley, too... :/

    Incidentally, I like what I've played of this hack. And it's so liberating to be able to freely use my Insta-Shield even after collecting all of the Chaos Emeralds...

    <!--quoteo(post=438462:date=Apr 6 2010, 02:54 PM:name=Covarr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Covarr @ Apr 6 2010, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=438462">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feature request: a patch to return super/hyper music to invinciblity rather than sped-up level music. I'm probably alone in this, but I prefer it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Actually, I second that.
     
  12. <!--quoteo(post=441666:date=Apr 12 2010, 05:45 PM:name=Solaris Paradox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Apr 12 2010, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441666">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the medley, too... :/

    Incidentally, I like what I've played of this hack. And it's so liberating to be able to freely use my Insta-Shield even after collecting all of the Chaos Emeralds...

    <!--quoteo(post=438462:date=Apr 6 2010, 02:54 PM:name=Covarr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Covarr @ Apr 6 2010, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=438462">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feature request: a patch to return super/hyper music to invinciblity rather than sped-up level music. I'm probably alone in this, but I prefer it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Actually, I second that.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    On that note, can you make a possible patch so that the S3 Invincible Music is played when Invincible, but the S&K Invincible theme plays when Super?
     
  13. Chaos Rush

    Chaos Rush

    AKA J.Matz Member
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    <!--quoteo(post=441570:date=Apr 12 2010, 11:41 AM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Apr 12 2010, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441570">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the thing that irks me most with the current end credits situation is that if you patch in the S&K main themes, you either have to have the 0517 credits with the wrong sting at the end, or the S&K credits with no Sonic 3 zone representation. It'd be nice, if nothing else, to have the 0517 version with the S&K sting grafted on as an option<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yeah, that's pretty much why I'd requested having the original S3 credits music as an option. I'd rather use the 0517 credits, but I prefer the S&K themes, and the 0517 credits had the S3 jingle at the end, which obviously would sound kinda "not epic".

    I wish Sonic rom hacking is more similar to Pokemon, with Pokemon you can easily convert an midi to hex and then just import it straight to the rom, and it would sound fine (as long as you have the right voicegroups and such).
     
  14. Solaris Paradox

    Solaris Paradox

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    I'm working on working up the willpower to work on learning how to make my own Sonic fangames. Not quite there yet.
    <!--quoteo(post=441667:date=Apr 12 2010, 05:47 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ Apr 12 2010, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441667">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On that note, can you make a possible patch so that the S3 Invincible Music is played when Invincible, but the S&K Invincible theme plays when Super?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ...That's actually a pretty cool idea.
     
  15. RedStripedShoes

    RedStripedShoes

    And I'm gone again. Member
    <!--quoteo(post=441707:date=Apr 12 2010, 06:55 PM:name=Solaris Paradox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Apr 12 2010, 06:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441707">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=441667:date=Apr 12 2010, 05:47 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ Apr 12 2010, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441667">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On that note, can you make a possible patch so that the S3 Invincible Music is played when Invincible, but the S&K Invincible theme plays when Super?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ...That's actually a pretty cool idea.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But then wouldn't we have to give the S&K tune more coverage elsewhere so it doesn't feel out of place?
     
  16. Solaris Paradox

    Solaris Paradox

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    On my butt in front of the computer. Where else?
    I'm working on working up the willpower to work on learning how to make my own Sonic fangames. Not quite there yet.
    <!--quoteo(post=441726:date=Apr 12 2010, 08:43 PM:name=RedStripedShoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedStripedShoes @ Apr 12 2010, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441726">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But then wouldn't we have to give the S&K tune more coverage elsewhere so it doesn't feel out of place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Maybe, maybe. Then again, if it's only treated as an optional patch, it could be left up to the person patching the ROM exactly how much coverage both themes get.

    I, for example, would choose the S&K ending theme over that chronically ungraceful prototype medley any day. =P
     
  17. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

    bobs over baghdad Member
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    making cool music no one gives a shit about
    To everyone requesting patches:

    I'm pretty sure Hayate is working on a sister hack that lets you tweak most of the things you're requesting using a custom program.
     
  18. Solaris Paradox

    Solaris Paradox

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    I'm working on working up the willpower to work on learning how to make my own Sonic fangames. Not quite there yet.
    Ran into a music bug whilst playing in Mushroom Hill Zone just now (still am). I got an extra life while invincible, the jingle played as the invincibility was wearing off, and the Invincibility music is now playing in place of the level music.

    If it helps, I've added the following patch-options to my ROM:
    - replaced prototype medley with S&K medley
    - disabled Super/Hyper form cancel command

    I can't see either of those affecting how the music transition from invincibility to level theme works, but what do I know? I'm not a programmer.

    EDIT: If that's been mentioned before, sorry for being redundant.
     
  19. RattleMan

    RattleMan

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    Was playing this awesome hack tonight when I accidentally ran into a bug. I reproduced the bug in this video: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQYJJSCJ8V4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQYJJSCJ8V4</a> . To do it you must initiate the transformation and immediately de-transform, both immediately after the fire-wall sound goes away, which is pretty difficult to time. Ignore the S&K invincible and miniboss music as I was using an S3&K file-select savestate.

    I'm more intrigued into why this bug happens rather than running into a bug.
     
  20. Solaris Paradox

    Solaris Paradox

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    On my butt in front of the computer. Where else?
    I'm working on working up the willpower to work on learning how to make my own Sonic fangames. Not quite there yet.
    <!--quoteo(post=441846:date=Apr 13 2010, 02:38 AM:name=RattleMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RattleMan @ Apr 13 2010, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=441846">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was playing this awesome hack tonight when I accidentally ran into a bug. I reproduced the bug in this video: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQYJJSCJ8V4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQYJJSCJ8V4</a> . To do it you must initiate the transformation and immediately de-transform, both immediately after the fire-wall sound goes away.

    What's interesting is two-fold in that not only does the "transformed" music play while not transformed, it plays the original S3&K tune! I'm using the default settings (no patches).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you were using the default version, wouldn't the Sonic 3 miniboss theme have played?