Sonic 3 Complete

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. <!--quoteo(post=426451:date=Mar 16 2010, 03:59 PM:name=Hanoch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hanoch @ Mar 16 2010, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=426451">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about you just kill him at the end of death egg zone 1? I mean, sometimes he actually dies at the transition beetween dez1-dez2 with that spinning teleporter, he gets left behind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Because there are 2 problems. 1, he can't die, he just keeps coming back. 2. We need it to look like he pissed off somewhere rather than just died. If he doesn't come back because he died, it looks more like he's actually dead and not many people would give it as much thought as we'd like them to. This would also disrupt co-op.
     
  2. Hanoch

    Hanoch

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    So, maybe when the ground destroys after dez1 boss, tails jumps off and sonic continues alone? Its actually possible because theres a special check to load tails to a level.
     
  3. mdawgmike

    mdawgmike

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    I have an idea for handling Tails towards the end of the game during "Sonic with Tails" play...

    After the final Mecha Sonic fight in Sky Sanctuary Zone, both Sonic and Tails normally jump off the falling ground and run up the spire to the Death Egg.

    Instead, have only Sonic jump up and have Tails jump and start to fly (as if he's going to glide down to safety after the floor below him breaks out). Sonic runs up the spire alone and goes through both Death Egg Zone acts and the final bosses, while Tails is assumed to be readying the Tornado. More believable?

    I, too, get frustrated with Tails during the final DEZ battle (especially if you die and restart with no rings). That, and the whole gap in the storyline at the end. I'm sure if S3&K wasn't so rushed Sega would've noticed the flaw somewhere in beta testing.
     
  4. <!--quoteo(post=426522:date=Mar 16 2010, 06:40 PM:name=mdawgmike)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mdawgmike @ Mar 16 2010, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=426522">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have an idea for handling Tails towards the end of the game during "Sonic with Tails" play...

    After the final Mecha Sonic fight in Sky Sanctuary Zone, both Sonic and Tails normally jump off the falling ground and run up the spire to the Death Egg.

    Instead, have only Sonic jump up and have Tails jump and start to fly (as if he's going to glide down to safety after the floor below him breaks out). Sonic runs up the spire alone and goes through both Death Egg Zone acts and the final bosses, while Tails is assumed to be readying the Tornado. More believable?

    I, too, get frustrated with Tails during the final DEZ battle (especially if you die and restart with no rings). That, and the whole gap in the storyline at the end. I'm sure if S3&K wasn't so rushed Sega would've noticed the flaw somewhere in beta testing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You mean, do what I suggested a few pages back?

    <!--quoteo(post=420787:date=Mar 5 2010, 02:55 PM:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix @ Mar 5 2010, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420787">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with your points on Death Egg to a degree. The problem is that Tails will follow you when Sky Sanctuary collapses and you jump for Death Egg. If you're going to keep Tails back, then you really need to have Tails part company with Sonic before the fight with Metal Sonic. You could even have Tails in the tornado flying in the background whilst you fight Metal Sonic just to set the idea. It's not how S3K had it, but it makes more sense than how it actually played out.

    I also think for continuity, Tails should stick with Sonic at the end of Launch Base, purely because of how Mushroom Hill starts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
     
  5. Chaos Rush

    Chaos Rush

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    Wow, this rom hack is what I've wanted for quite a while. I've always wanted to play S3&K without the "& KNUCKLES" pasted on the title screen.

    I really like your decision to use the original Sonic 3 credits over the Sky Sanctuary theme at the beginning of the ending. Here's some of my suggestions:
    *How about a patch that makes the original Sonic 3 credits (the "Stranger In Moscow" thing) during the S3&K credits? Since the medley from S&K doesn't include the first 6 zones, and the medley from Sonic 3 Limited Edition plays the original Sonic 3 jingle at the end, and I prefer the S&K title themes over the S3 ones. To settle everything, you could just use the original Sonic 3 credits (and keep the Sky Sanctuary music)
    *What about a patch to remove Big Arm from Launch Base? I know that this was something you did intentionally, but IMO, fighting 3 bosses in Launch Base Act 2 makes the transition from Launch Base into Mushroom Hill feel a little "disrupted". Also another reason why I think you should remove Big Arm is because of the song that plays, it makes the Death Egg boss feel a lot less "climatic" because you've already heard that music.

    These are just suggestions, they might appeal to you. Normally I wouldn't do extra work for random people on the internet, but I think it's really cool that you have music patches to restore the S&K themes.
     
  6. <!--quoteo(post=426695:date=Mar 16 2010, 10:27 PM:name=Chaos Rush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chaos Rush @ Mar 16 2010, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=426695">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, this rom hack is what I've wanted for quite a while. I've always wanted to play S3&K without the "& KNUCKLES" pasted on the title screen.

    I really like your decision to use the original Sonic 3 credits over the Sky Sanctuary theme at the beginning of the ending. Here's some of my suggestions:
    *How about a patch that makes the original Sonic 3 credits (the "Stranger In Moscow" thing) during the S3&K credits? Since the medley from S&K doesn't include the first 6 zones, and the medley from Sonic 3 Limited Edition plays the original Sonic 3 jingle at the end, and I prefer the S&K title themes over the S3 ones. To settle everything, you could just use the original Sonic 3 credits (and keep the Sky Sanctuary music)
    *What about a patch to remove Big Arm from Launch Base? I know that this was something you did intentionally, but IMO, fighting 3 bosses in Launch Base Act 2 makes the transition from Launch Base into Mushroom Hill feel a little "disrupted". Also another reason why I think you should remove Big Arm is because of the song that plays, it makes the Death Egg boss feel a lot less "climatic" because you've already heard that music.

    These are just suggestions, they might appeal to you. Normally I wouldn't do extra work for random people on the internet, but I think it's really cool that you have music patches to restore the S&K themes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I was disappointed when S3K removed the arms boss from Launch base. The reintroduction of this boss in LBZ2 is a fantastic addition in my opinion. It's how that level was originally planned in S3 and I think it should stay. It doesn't feel like it takes anything away from the final boss. In fact, I felt cheapened by the fact that the arms boss was removed in the Sonic and Tails play through, as if he was too hard or something.
     
  7. MastaSys

    MastaSys

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    Some games, like Mega Man 7, have a Mid-game Boss.
    The Sonic 3 Final Boss works well as that.
     
  8. Robjoe

    Robjoe

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    In response to the Tails dilemma: When I was a kid, I remember wondering about this before actually beating the game with Sonic and Tails. I distinctly remember assuming Knuckles would fly the plane and catch both of them, and honestly, that's about the only "clean" way this would work. All the other suggestions gimp co-op near the end of the game. Also, Tails has never killed me in the DEZ3 boss. Not once. :colbert:

    In response to the LBZ bosses: I like the idea of having all three bosses in the level, but I wouldn't recommend darkening the sky or playing the final boss tune for the hand boss. It seems like it would feel somewhat tacky, as it's only the midway point of the game. Moreover, do you have Knuckles fighting the cannonball boss before the laser and hand ones? I'm assuming you do, but I can't remember. Speaking of the cannonball one, and penultimate act 2 bosses in general, perhaps you should play the S&K miniboss tune for them? It'd add more spice to the game, having the S3 one for act 1 bosses, and the S&K one for the act 2 bosses that come before the end of the level (and probably also on the DEZ1 boss since he's the longest and hardest midboss in the game). ...And if you've already done this and I've merely failed to do my homework, disregard; sorry.
     
  9. Fred

    Fred

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    <!--quoteo(post=427257:date=Mar 17 2010, 09:45 PM:name=Robjoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Robjoe @ Mar 17 2010, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427257">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I distinctly remember assuming Knuckles would fly the plane and catch both of them, and honestly, that's about the only "clean" way this would work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I second the notion of having Knuckles fly the plane and pick Sonic and Tails up. And, if possible, make the plane all spastic and jumpy like he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.
     
  10. MastaSys

    MastaSys

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    People are going too far from "Sonic 3 Complete" and too near to " Sonic 3 Fan Game Hack".

    Making Knuckles drive the plane?

    I say leave the animation of sky base as it is.
    It's ambiguous enough for the two cases (The player can interpret two cases, Tails jumped out of the sky palace to the island waiting for sonic or goes with him.)
    And then in the Death Egg is if playing alone, you only play with Sonic there, and if your playing with a friend, Tails also appears with him for game play reasons.
    And it's easy to explain the case of a person playing solo and then a 2nd player joins the game and Tails appear.
    (Oh after all he WAS in Death Egg, for gameplay reasons, not breaking the co-op proponent of Sonic & Tails.)

    And solving that magic appearing Tornado, (that for me isn't an issue at all, but ok) without editing the game to fangame level.
     
  11. Chaos Knux

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    I still vote spazzy Knux piloting. After all, he's gotta do something while S&T are in the DEZ, right? Everyone is on the same side by SSZ, right? So Tails tells Knux where the Tornado is and he gets it. Tail lives past Death Egg Zone by jumping away and just slowly put-put-putting down. offscreen Knux catches him, lands, gets off, and Tails flies back up to catch post-DZ Sonic and the ME.
     
  12. Covarr

    Covarr

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    <!--quoteo(post=427380:date=Mar 17 2010, 06:32 PM:name=Chaos Knux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chaos Knux @ Mar 17 2010, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=427380">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still vote spazzy Knux piloting. After all, he's gotta do something while S&T are in the DEZ, right? Everyone is on the same side by SSZ, right? So Tails tells Knux where the Tornado is and he gets it. Tail lives past Death Egg Zone by jumping away and just slowly put-put-putting down. offscreen Knux catches him, lands, gets off, and Tails flies back up to catch post-DZ Sonic and the ME.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Piloting the tornado takes training, which Tails has not given Knuckles. Hell, if SA is any indication, Tails can barely fly the thing himself.
     
  13. Chaos Knux

    Chaos Knux

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    THANK YOU for calling SA into the equation. If BIG THE RETARDED FATASS CAT can fly it, surely Knux can.
     
  14. Writing a new animation sequence is completely different to just having a different character in the Tornado. I say, who gives a shit if he can fly it or not, assume he's a pro pilot. He can glide after all.
     
  15. Chaos Knux

    Chaos Knux

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    Well, all the stuff about Tails putputputting down was also offscreen.
     
  16. Why not have the plane fly by itself? I know, "where is tails?" He can fly with his tails, of course.
     
  17. Chaos Knux

    Chaos Knux

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    <!--quoteo(post=428513:date=Mar 19 2010, 08:27 PM:name=Magickoopa24)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Magickoopa24 @ Mar 19 2010, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428513">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not have the plane fly by itself? I know, "where is tails?" He can fly with his tails, of course.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remote controller + incredible range + hidden somewhere on Angel Island = Tails caught himself in the tornado first, then took manual control and caught Sonic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I can't seriously be the only one who can see Tails doing this.
     
  18. No, you're not, but it's retarded. In my opinion you need someone flying it at all times rather than nobody flying it. People would just go "What the fuck? Nobody is flying the plane." where as nobody would bat an eyelid at Knuckles flying it instead, and we know that Sky Sanctuary can support all 3 characters palettes already. Besides, how would people know it was being controlled remotely? The only reason you'd know was because you were told. To me it would look like the game fucked up because Tails was on the level so he couldn't be both in the Plane and on the level. Knuckles makes total sense to be the one flying as he already gets left behind on Sky Sanctuary.
     
  19. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    <!--quoteo(post=428625:date=:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428625">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We know that Sky Sanctuary can support all 3 characters palettes already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No more so than in any AI Knuckles appearance... in every case where Sonic and Knuckles appear together, a special palette is loaded for that scene, and then discarded - Sky Sanctuary is no different. The ending palette is different anyway, though does seem to be a bit of spare space in it.

    Honestly, I have no plans to change the ending sequence anyway. Tails might stop hanging around before the end to make the existing one more believable, with an option for P2 to bring him back if that does happen. Changing what actually happens in the ending is beyond the scope of what I want to do with S3 Complete.
     
  20. nineko

    nineko

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    <!--quoteo(post=428679:date=Mar 20 2010, 12:32 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Mar 20 2010, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428679">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=428625:date=:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=428625">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We know that Sky Sanctuary can support all 3 characters palettes already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No more so than in any AI Knuckles appearance... in every case where Sonic and Knuckles appear together, a special palette is loaded for that scene, and then discarded - Sky Sanctuary is no different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Just using a picture to prove that Tiddles is right:
    [​IMG]

    I'm surprised that there is still some people who don't know these things, you might expect this to be common knowledge by now :(