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Sonic 2 Retro Remix

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Thorn, May 30, 2008.

  1. nineko

    nineko

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    <!--quoteo(post=486185:date=Aug 2 2010, 07:08 PM:name=dsrb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dsrb @ Aug 2 2010, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=486185">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I updated <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic 2 Retro Remix" target="_blank" style="background: url(http://info.sonicretro.org/images/5/50/Reticon.png) right no-repeat; padding-right: 20px; border-bottom: 1px dotted #3366BB; color: #3366BB; cursor:pointer; text-decoration:none;" class="wiki">Sonic 2 Retro Remix</a> with the latest ROM and screenshot<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And by doing that, you uploaded a screenshot with the VERY descriptive name "S2Built006.png" and orphaned <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/File:S2RR_Intro.png" target="_blank" style="background: url(http://info.sonicretro.org/images/5/50/Reticon.png) right no-repeat; padding-right: 20px; border-bottom: 1px dotted #3366BB; color: #3366BB; cursor:pointer; text-decoration:none;" class="wiki">File:S2RR_Intro.png</a> at the same time. Nice work.

    edit: ffffff, you orphaned <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/File:S2RR_Hacking_Contest_2009.zip" target="_blank" style="background: url(http://info.sonicretro.org/images/5/50/Reticon.png) right no-repeat; padding-right: 20px; border-bottom: 1px dotted #3366BB; color: #3366BB; cursor:pointer; text-decoration:none;" class="wiki">File:S2RR_Hacking_Contest_2009.zip</a> as well. Be glad I'm not a sysop anymore, I would have suspended you for three months.
     
  2. dsrb

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    If only you were. Clearly I suck that much.
     
  3. Thorn

    Thorn

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    Right, I'm going to hold off editing the Wiki page for today, because I just fixed all of the text only to see it lost in another revision. When this orphaned file situation is fixed, let me know. >_>
    EDIt: Wait, it's not lost, it's underneath other text stating the same thing. Seriously, one person edit at a time plz. >_>

    Relatedly, Bugfix 1 hasn't been released yet: the first bugfix will be around the start of SAGE. I've got the door in Cascade Valley set to disappear at 13 emeralds now (it was set to 10 with a picture of 13 behind it), the underwater palette in Chemical Plant 2 is fixed thanks to qiuu, and I've got the signpost loading graphics and functioning properly even when the timer update flag is permanently off. If I'm bored enough on Wednesday when I'm off from work, I might add a few other things or tweak some levels, and I'll probably ease some mission requirements.

    Both RGamer2009 and shobiz edited the page while I was editing the page, sending me into spiral of
    "This page has external links. Please use the captcha for security purposes."
    "Somebody edited this page since you started working. Please merge your changes."
    "This page has external links. Please use the captcha for security purposes."
    "Somebody edited this page since you started working. Please merge your changes."
    "This page has external links. Please use the captcha for security purposes."

    I was beginning to think I was in an infinite loop.
     
  4. <!--quoteo(post=486202:date=Aug 2 2010, 01:36 PM:name=Thorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thorn @ Aug 2 2010, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=486202">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right, I'm going to hold off editing the Wiki page for today, because I just fixed all of the text only to see it lost in another revision. When this orphaned file situation is fixed, let me know. >_>

    Relatedly, Bugfix 1 hasn't been released yet: the first bugfix will be around the start of SAGE. I've got the door in Cascade Valley set to disappear at 13 emeralds now (it was set to 10 with a picture of 13 behind it), the underwater palette in Chemical Plant 2 is fixed thanks to qiuu, and I've got the signpost loading graphics and functioning properly even when the timer update flag is permanently off. If I'm bored enough on Wednesday when I'm off from work, I might add a few other things or tweak some levels, and I'll probably ease some mission requirements.

    Both RGamer2009 and shobiz edited the page while I was editing the page, sending me into spiral of
    "This page has external links. Please use the captcha for security purposes."
    "Somebody edited this page since you started working. Please merge your changes."
    "This page has external links. Please use the captcha for security purposes."
    "Somebody edited this page since you started working. Please merge your changes."
    "This page has external links. Please use the captcha for security purposes."

    I was beginning to think I was in an infinite loop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Crap...sorry. D:

    All I wanted was the LevelBob box to be the same width as the others...

    EDIT: Why the heck is there 2 Download boxes?!
     
  5. Thorn

    Thorn

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    ^ The issue was that the title of the version of the hack was set as both Hacking Contest and SAGE, which was so long that it stretched the levelbob out. Also, it wasn't you that lost the changes made, I spotted your edit and worked around it; no need to apologize.

    EDIT: There's probably two DL links because of the edit after mine. I'm just going to leave this alone until everybody decides what to do with it; I don't want to add to the mess.
     
  6. dsrb

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    Thorn, apologies for that. I shouldn't have been so quick to label it as a bugfix since you just fixed a byte or two. Sorry about any conflicts too. Consider my fingers out of the <strike>pie</strike> article.
     
  7. Thorn

    Thorn

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    Okay, I just did a rollback to the page I made with all of the information about the release corrected. If anybody wants to add other information, that's fine, but keep it to one editor at a time.
     
  8. NeonSynth

    NeonSynth

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    <!--quoteo(post=486202:date=Aug 2 2010, 07:36 PM:name=Thorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thorn @ Aug 2 2010, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=486202">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and I'll probably ease some mission requirements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Waitwhat? I hope that does only count for the SAGE release. Although, you could ease the time attack a bit since some of the people here aren't speedrunners.
     
  9. Thorn

    Thorn

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    ^ Lame excuse is lame.~ If I eased that up because some people aren't speedrunners, then I'd have to ease up every other mission because some people aren't scavenger hunters.

    I have specific time attacks and score attacks in mind that I'm going to be more lenient with, but not all of them.
     
  10. NeonSynth

    NeonSynth

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    <!--quoteo(post=486221:date=Aug 2 2010, 08:07 PM:name=Thorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thorn @ Aug 2 2010, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=486221">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I eased that up because some people aren't speedrunners, then I'd have to ease up every other mission because some people aren't scavenger hunters.

    I have specific time attacks and score attacks in mind that I'm going to be more lenient with, but not all of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's... a valid point. But at least for me Metropolis seems impossible to get the time attack emerald.
    But ignore that, since the final release will have more levels, more room and more emeralds to find. (But I still hope it'll be a teeny-weeny bit harder. :( )
     
  11. Hey All,

    Firstly, I would like to say that I don't post too often. Mainly due to being a trial member, and not wanting to run out of posts.

    Now onto my thoughts/review of the hack:

    I played this over the weekend for a good two hours or more; and on real hardware I might add! :)
    The sram issue I suffered with the last release has been rectified. Thanks Thorn! :)
    I must say that the time I spent playing this hack was well worth it. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

    The overworld/missions system is great.

    I like the direction the art has gone in since the last release.
    Frosty Peak is a beautiful level. - Question: Is the background for this level complete? In the top section of Act 2, It seemed to be incomplete. If you need a picture please ask.
    Casino Night beta: Despite being beta art , I feel this level has a fresh and new vibe to it.

    Question: What will the total number of levels be? and will all levels have their art revised?

    Onto the music:

    In short, I liked the music for the new stages, and found them fitting to the zones. More specifically, I liked FPZ act 2. Despite this track being from another sonic game, I like how it works with FPZ 2.

    SPOILER
    <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I also enjoyed playing the ARZ + MCZ bosses. Some small changes can make a big difference, when implemented correctly. :)
    In addition to this, I found the Special Stage in CPZ.
    Are there any more of these?</span>

    I love the level layouts in this hack. I cannot praise them enough. There are many paths that can be taken in any given act, and I cant imagine how much time is spent putting together a single act.


    Now onto a few of my thoughts in regards to future updates: No doubt you have a pretty strict plan as to the direction you wish to go with this hack, but I thought its always worth while putting your ideas out there for discussion.
    I realise some of these require a huge amount of asm knowledge and time to implement. Just to make this clear, this is not my wishlist for this hack as such, merely ideas that I have came up with. (Please don't flame me.)

    Firstly; the Mission System, and the complaints that some people are making in regards to the game being too hard.
    Im not the best player, and I managed to achieve 22 emeralds in a few hours of play.
    Suggestion: Have an options menu where the player can choose between; Easy, Medium and Hard. That way if people suck at getting emeralds, they can still progress without collecting so many.

    Characters:

    If at any time in the future, you were to decide to include tails and knuckles into this hack, I'm certain it would recieve high levels of praise for doing so. Being able to play this hack with the ability to climb/fly would open up a whole different way of exploring the levels and finding the emeralds.

    In addition to this, a Sonic and Tails combo (ala Retro Sonic - Player 1 can carry sonic as tails) is something I think would be great to see.

    Ofcourse with additional characters, this may lead to a multitude of things such as save data screens etc.

    No doubt you are fed up reading by now, so I shall leave it there.

    Excellent work on this hack! Well done to all involved! :)

    TLDR: This hack rules, I cant wait for future updates. :thumbsup:
     
  12. DNX

    DNX

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    If you notice the difficulty as you play through the levels, you'll realize that some of the missions begin to get a bit harder, not the levels themselves as much. This same concept was also from SM64; the levels/missions get harder as you progress through out the game, so there isn't really a need for alternative difficulties. But I did speak with Thorn yesterday regarding the difficulty on some of the missions as well as the concept of the emeralds themselves due to the complaints (I'm not pointing fingers here :ssh: ). He said he might have something that would most likely satisfy both sides.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Question: What will the total number of levels be? and will all levels have their art revised?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As I've mentioned before, all levels will have their art revised; in fact, I'm close to done with ARZ and already moved on to CNZ (strangely enough, I enjoy editing this level). There's a good chance we might add a couple of extras in the future, but that's just rushing it.

    As for Tails, I also spoke with Thorn a long while back regarding why he was excluded for the time being (and still is). His response iirc, "The game crashes with Tails". Even with him fully playable, it would be a bit of a drag to integrate him into the levels (as they're meant for Sonic).
     
  13. <!--quoteo(post=485946:date=Aug 1 2010, 07:04 PM:name=Thorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thorn @ Aug 1 2010, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=485946">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=485726:date=Aug 1 2010, 02:27 AM:name=Kilometers Prower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kilometers Prower @ Aug 1 2010, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=485726">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And, I'm just gonna throw this one out there - maybe some sort of "emerald sensing" radar would be useful, like Knuckles in the Adventure games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <div align='center'>[​IMG]</div>
    Sonic: The One Ring already did this. That said, I already have plans to use this for the "perfect" game reward next time by opening up the Sonic equivalent of Galaxy 2's Green Stars, where you won't get mission descriptions but can hear the emeralds.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Utilizing a feature like that isn't stealing, it just means that it was a well designed feature with more uses than its creator intended. If a feature fits and would noticeably improve the game, then it should be included. Games, whether hacks (which some would call stealing) or original, borrow features from other games all the time, that's how game design in general progresses: one person takes another persons idea, expands upon it, and adds their own ideas. Ideas don't just materialize out of thin air. If you really think this feature would improve your game but withhold it, then you're wasting a good idea.
     
  14. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    <!--quoteo(post=486303:date=Aug 2 2010, 09:40 PM:name=Squier Super Sonic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squier Super Sonic @ Aug 2 2010, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=486303">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Utilizing a feature like that isn't stealing, it just means that it was a well designed feature with more uses than its creator intended. If a feature fits and would noticeably improve the game, then it should be included. Games, whether hacks (which some would call stealing) or original, borrow features from other games all the time, that's how game design in general progresses: one person takes another persons idea, expands upon it, and adds their own ideas. Ideas don't just materialize out of thin air. If you really think this feature would improve your game but withhold it, then you're wasting a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Plus, it was done in Sonic Adventure 1 & 2, so SEGA had the idea first.

    <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">in b4 "Actually, SEGA had the Sonic idea first."<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
     
  15. Effexor

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    Here's a useful hint for everyone (if it hasn't been said before): Don't use save states. It messes up your emeralds got and current emerald count. Trust me, I know.

    I was trying to find out exactly how many emeralds you needed to get to certain places (as I got the first 18 I could find), so I set a savestate with my completed file (21 emeralds), started a new game, and found the totals, getting an emerald I didn't get in my original file. Then I loaded the state up, and I found that I had the same emeralds I got on my second playthrough (8), but the count I had was what I had orignially (21).

    So yeah, just a heads up.
     
  16. Fred

    Fred

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    <!--quoteo(post=486221:date=Aug 2 2010, 07:07 PM:name=Thorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thorn @ Aug 2 2010, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=486221">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lame excuse is lame.~ If I eased that up because some people aren't speedrunners, then I'd have to ease up every other mission because some people aren't scavenger hunters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Except accidentally leaving an emerald behind doesn't force you to retry the challenge
     
  17. Thorn

    Thorn

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    <!--quoteo(post=486303:date=Aug 2 2010, 04:40 PM:name=Squier Super Sonic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squier Super Sonic @ Aug 2 2010, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=486303">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=485946:date=Aug 1 2010, 07:04 PM:name=Thorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thorn @ Aug 1 2010, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=485946">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=485726:date=Aug 1 2010, 02:27 AM:name=Kilometers Prower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kilometers Prower @ Aug 1 2010, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=485726">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And, I'm just gonna throw this one out there - maybe some sort of "emerald sensing" radar would be useful, like Knuckles in the Adventure games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <div align='center'>[​IMG]</div>
    Sonic: The One Ring already did this. That said, I already have plans to use this for the "perfect" game reward next time by opening up the Sonic equivalent of Galaxy 2's Green Stars, where you won't get mission descriptions but can hear the emeralds.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Utilizing a feature like that isn't stealing, it just means that it was a well designed feature with more uses than its creator intended. If a feature fits and would noticeably improve the game, then it should be included. Games, whether hacks (which some would call stealing) or original, borrow features from other games all the time, that's how game design in general progresses: one person takes another persons idea, expands upon it, and adds their own ideas. Ideas don't just materialize out of thin air. If you really think this feature would improve your game but withhold it, then you're wasting a good idea.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--quoteo(post=486304:date=Aug 2 2010, 04:46 PM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ Aug 2 2010, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=486304">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plus, it was done in Sonic Adventure 1 & 2, so SEGA had the idea first.

    <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">in b4 "Actually, SEGA had the Sonic idea first."<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    ...holy crap, guys. Read the post that Squier quoted. I already said that I have plans to use that feature for something, and I even made Mercury aware of the similar premises of our hacks when he posted his. That screenshot is never meant seriously.

    <!--quoteo(post=486347:date=Aug 2 2010, 06:40 PM:name=Neo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neo @ Aug 2 2010, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=486347">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=486221:date=Aug 2 2010, 07:07 PM:name=Thorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thorn @ Aug 2 2010, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=486221">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lame excuse is lame.~ If I eased that up because some people aren't speedrunners, then I'd have to ease up every other mission because some people aren't scavenger hunters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Except accidentally leaving an emerald behind doesn't force you to retry the challenge
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I can think of several instances of this, actually. There are two emeralds in CV2, one in CV3, one in FP2, and one in CN1 that you get one shot at without having to restart. I can think of many others where if you step a bit too far past the emerald, you head through a one-way door or up from under a top-solid floor and lose your chance. You are by no means required to play the time attack and score attack missions if you don't want to: again, you need 18 of 63 available emeralds to reach the final levels. I know you said you're a completionist, so that remark might not be mean much to you, but I didn't publish this beta expecting 100% completion as evidenced by how lousy the 100% reward is. :P
     
  18. steveswede

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    Why do people still want the missions to be easier? I felt a bit uneasy when it was announced that this hack was going to be made easier from the last one. But when this latest build was released. I feel the balance is just right. You can easily complete the game with a bit of patience within a few hours if you are new to it. But if you want a real challenge, then you can try to get them all. I for one have never got a score mission because I find that those challenges set very high. But I find that great because if I really wanted to push myself mastering this game. Then there are some really tough missions to put my skill to the test. In a sense, you could class those missions as the extra hard mode of the game. There is no need to make missions like these easier as it is not mandatory to do them.
     
  19. <!--quoteo(post=486420:date=Aug 2 2010, 09:56 PM:name=Thorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thorn @ Aug 2 2010, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=486420">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...holy crap, guys. Read the post that Squier quoted. I already said that I have plans to use that feature for something, and I even made Mercury aware of the similar premises of our hacks when he posted his. That screenshot is never meant seriously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sorry about that, I was confused and thought it might be serious since I've seen crazier things regarding the "ownership" of creations so I just thought I'd play the part of Captain Obvious and post that little reminder. I mean I've seen some pretty eye rolling, face palming, groan inducing things even on this forum where people actually think like that. Looking back I feel pretty silly. Thanks for clearing things up.
     
  20. dsrb

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    I realise how little my initial post about the latest release conveyed how AWESOME it is.
    So here are two things that will hopefully convey the magnitude of my love for this hack:

    I played it until 4 AM.
    And although I've not tried anything beyond CVZ/ARZ (and still have some missions to complete in the former), and haven't played a great number of hacks, I think I agree with steveswede:
    <!--quoteo(post=485352:date=Jul 31 2010, 01:29 AM:name=steveswede)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steveswede @ Jul 31 2010, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=485352">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Overall it's just amazing. To me it's the best hack I've ever played. It even pains me playing the original classics after I've played this because I find this more fun to play than them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sega should retroactively hire you guys and release this. It's that good. How can I go back to holding right, jumping occasionally, and not/barely being challenged at all by layouts, enemies and the requirement to think while I play, after this?

    To summarise:
    This = hack of all time
    <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Whisp" target="_blank" style="background: url(http://info.sonicretro.org/images/5/50/Reticon.png) right no-repeat; padding-right: 20px; border-bottom: 1px dotted #3366BB; color: #3366BB; cursor:pointer; text-decoration:none;" class="wiki">Whisp</a> = RAAAAAAAAAAGE

    Edit: A few suggestions, if you take any:
    * An Emerald monitor counter (I think this was mentioned already), or at least a pop-up number like SM64
    * Wouldn't it make more sense if said monitors contained Emerald shards, since collecting all 7 awards one Emerald?
    * That mission list mock-up with the Sonic logo in the centre (a bit like SM64) looked good; any plans to revisit it?
    * More influence/stuff from SM64 and NiGHTS can only be good! For example, SM64-style missions to collect a set number of rings (I.e. coins), whether normal or special (I.e. red) ones; or NiGHTS/SCD-like ones to destroy a certain number of specific enemies/machines. And of course music.

    Anyway, MOARRR