Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by drx, Oct 15, 2006.
*hands everyone a chill pill*
For fucking hell's sake, rika, I'm simply trying to contribute, and you deter every post the honorable Rika's Ass disagrees with. Back the fuck off.
Horrible assumption there. I'm here because its the only other real reasearch/hacking based board than Sonic CulT, which I also visit.
I feel that there is not enough confirmed differnece between this and the current prototype to justify the $1500 price tag,
I also feel the same concern. However, I trust drx's judgement as to whether or not this new (?) prototype will be worth the money that we're paying for it. If we had some sort of video, or pictures of the proto in action, I'd be more convinced there's a substantial enough difference between our proto and this one to warrant such a large purchase. I mean, this is almost as much as we could've got X-Treme for!
Just think about it. Other than that, all we have to do is wait, really.
It's not the matter of 'worth'. There is only one copy of that and if we don't buy it, someone else will, and it'll be gone.
Yeah, I get that, but I think the main concern is that there's still a possibility that it will be VERY similar, if not identical, to our current proto.
I trust that isn't the case for now, but I'm just bringing that concern out in the open. You just do your thang, as you've done many times before.
I think that possibility is low, however. The magazine says early August, and since it's the October 1992 issue that takes care of the lead time. Assuming the header is accurate, our build is from April 1991. Even if you consider that to be a typo and that it's more likely April 1992, that leaves about four months of development between our proto and this new build.
Its definitely later. Wood zone and Genocide City have been removed already (not in the zone list provided in the scans) but it's still before Sky Chase and Sky Fortress got added. So it's a bit earlier than the one in the scan here http://s2beta.com/magpics10
still different, but different enough to see more interesting things? who knows, but probly not. Most likely itll just be a more complete version of what we already have.
It's not good to assume things. APR 1991 is also the date in the sonic 1 header. Since sonic 2 was built off sonic 1 that's where that came from. (heck, even the product code in s2beta still uses the REV01 sonic1 product code) It would be rediculusly cumbersome for the programmers to change the header date for different dev builds. the header stuff wouldn't have been fixed till RC builds or specificly for the final.
Its not good to assume anything. everyone just says ah whatever its a few months later than our beta... but youve got to take into account that everything about the later prototypes on this website may be false, as they are theories. No one except the testers and developers know for sure what zones were worked on or deleted when and in what version of the game. For all we know, this prototype could yield things that have been puzzling us for years now. and could even give us an insight on exactly how the beta Sky Chase Zone & Sky Fortress Zone looked, or if the Death Egg Zone was finished by this time, also, Was the game playable from start to finish from this point, Was the Hidden Palace Zone worked on more than we think? all these questions could be answered by this prototype...
they never change the date in the header. I've examined many protos, and nearly all have the expected _release_ date in header.
DEZ maybe, Sky Chase and Sky Fortress, no (at least not likely). those two (along with WZ & GCZ) were not listed in the zone list provided in the scans.
Any reasonably advanced toolchain should include a preprocessing assembler and a variant of make (which can easily be simulated by shell scripts if it isn't available). I don't see why they couldn't have used date symbols or a small specialized program (if the header is linked in from a binary file) to insert the date rather than manually editing it. It's clear that the assembler that Sonic Team used was able to process not only symbols, but macros. Ergo, this argument is completely rediculous.
Of course, since there's not much reason to keep around old binary images, I don't see why they would have needed to change the date very often. Their source files and directories would have had much more precice timestamps.
1. they didnt have time for this kind of stuff
2. they weren't anal linux fanboys =P
But my method saves time. =( If you wanted to put the current month in the header, anyway. Clearly, they did not.
After doing some careful research, I've manage to hone in on what kind of build this Sonic 2 prototype may possibly be. If what Drx is after is truly the prototype that was previewed on the VG&CE magazine scans Drx uploaded; then the prototype this associate producer from VG&CE magazine apparently has possession of may be a different build from the Sonic 2 prototype we have now. To get a better idea of which build this may be, take a look at the Sonic 2 Beta Prototypes Timeline. Based on what I've researched this build in which Drx is after takes place somewhere between the "Nick Arcade" and "The Mean Machines Sega VHS" period. In other words, Drx may have found a different Sonic 2 Beta than the one we have now but not fully developed to where it took place somewhere between the "The Mean Machines Sega VHS" and "Unknown French Media" period. Basically it's not a real late Sonic 2 Beta before reaching its final version.
Here are some key points:
1) The VG&CE magazine scans here state that there are only 10 zones in this game now. The Sonic 2 Beta we have now has at least 12 zones. Assuming they figured this out by activating the level select, which means Wood Zone and Genocide City Zone was out of the picture in the selection of levels to choose from. However, that didn't mean Wood Zone and Genocide City Zone completely disappeared. All of it's preserved data still existed in the rom of course and continue to still exist even through out its development up to at least the "Sega Sonic Gold Gudie '93" period. Notice the magazine doesn't mention anything about those two zones at all. In fact, they don't mention about Sky Chase Zone or Sky Fortress Zone at all yet either. The magazine mostly talks about most of the main zones we have in the final now (including Hidden Palace Zone which is eventually scraped in the final). The way the magazine listed the levels is exactly how it's arranged if you look at any Sonic 2 Beta level select. Only some levels were added and/or removed throughout it's development; otherwise the rest stay in same arrangement until they were organized in the final version using a different level select. VG&CE Magazine wasn't the only magazine that stated about there being 10 zones; Gamepro magazine also stated it here as well. This "Super-secrete" zone VG&CE magazine talks about may possible be the special stages considering the magazine pretty much stated all the zones available. So without a doubt, this Sonic 2 prototype Drx is after may be a different build from the one we have but not a real late buld. It's definitely not an earlier build before the one we have now for apparent reasons.
2) Take a good look at Dust Hill Zone for the Sonic 2 Beta we have here (play the actual level if you can) and take a look at this VG&CE magazine scan here. The Dust Hill Zone for the build Drx is after is definitely different and possibly more developed in comparison to the Sonic 2 Beta we have now.
3) Take a good look at both these VG&CE magazine scans (here and here). Notice Sonics running animation is exactly the same running animation in the Sonic 2 Beta we have now. If you look at all the pictures of the later builds between the "Mean Machines Sega VHS" and "Unknown French Media" period, Sonics running animation is like that of the final version. One thing I must note though, because it's really hard to tell if Sonics running animation in all the Gamepro scans (here, here, and here) is still the same like the running animation in the Sonic 2 Beta we have now; It's hard to say if this later build Drx is after could very well fall under the "Gamepro" period or not. Because there are still some similarities though between the Sonic 2 Beta we have now and the pictures from the Gamepro scans, I've decided to broaden the time period in which this later Sonic 2 prototype Drx is after may fall into place. Such similarities include the sonic life icons being the same still for both players in 2-player mode for example (which eventually gets fixed as you can see in the "Spanish Promotion VHS" pictures here).
Note that some of this is all theoretical still based on what I've researched (using the Sonic 2 Bet Prototypes timeline), and may not be the case so take it with a grain of salt. Some of the information I've pointed out like the differences/similiarities between the Sonic 2 Beta Drx believes to have found (exclusively for VG&CE) and the one we have now would be factual but until proven otherwise.
From what I've gathered, what Drx may have found and is after is very much a big deal (if that's the case in which I trust him on). If Drx manages to get this prototype, expect to see more developed levels and fewer bugs in this later version of Sonic 2 Beta. While some levels may still very well be the same from before, I can guarantee you the other levels will be more complete in comparison the Sonic 2 Beta we have now. We may have some more data in the later Sonic 2 Beta that wasn't there in the Sonic 2 Beta and/or Final we have now.
As for me, I definitely would like to donate if possible but I can't promise anything yet. Hopefully I do manage to get something worked out as far as that goes. Other then that, I'm very excited about this along with the Sonic 3D E3 demo coming soon.
Credit goes to Drx (based on what he's found out along with the VG&CE magazine scans he uploaded), Sonic 2 Beta and Sonic Cult for all the information that's been provided for this research. Credit also goes to anyone who shared similiar ideas.
Revised for several reasons, click here to find out what's been updated on this research.
I might be able to contribute $50-$100.
Has this been posted at Sonic Cult yet?
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet. That's some very good points there =) Thanks.
Still waiting for paypal to transfer money to my bank account (so I can see if I can safely use it).
Crap, this is what happens when you don't take into consideration all the possibilities. I'm really sorry but I have to flag this piece information folks. Today I was carefully checking out the the VG&CE magazine scan of Dust Hill Zone (while playing DHZ for the Sonic 2 Beta we have now) again and found quite a few similiarities. In the magazine scan, there is three swingers, look at the top and you'll the the three stubs which carries the swing. Look to the right and you can barely see a spike from the four hammer balls. Last but not least was kind of tricky. When playing our Sonic 2 Betas DHZ in 2-player mode, some of the sprites while playing it can sometimes dissappear. When I reached the six rotating boxes, the first two were missing, and looked exactly like how the magazine scan showed it. Otherwise these six rotating boxes would normally appear in our Sonic 2 Betas DHZ 2-player mode.
I can safely say it may not be an earlier build from the one we have now still. When looking at the VG&CE magazine scan here of Hill Top Zone, the red orb is more developed in comparison to the picture that was taken during the "Sega Visions '92" period. We know its not a real late build. So now this build Drx is after has fallen somewhere between "Nick Arcade" and "Mean Machines Sega VHS" period". In fact, in the "Mean Machines Sega VHS" period, it's stated that Sonic indeed has the running animation from the final version (my mistake for not noticing that ether. So Sonic is using the running animation from the final version in "Gamepro" period); the build Drx is after does not have the running animation from the final version.
Again its all theoretical still (using the Sonic 2 Bet Prototypes timeline). Especially if VG&CE magazine and SEGA wasn't quite sure what was going into the game and if the information they've gathered was correct at the time. In other words, I have a rough idea that we may see some different developed data from the Sonic 2 Prototype Drx found in comparison the Sonic 2 Beta we have now. And/or we may see the same developed data from the Sonic 2 Prototype Drx found in comparison the Sonic 2 Beta we have now. We don't know for sure, there's only one way to find out and that is to have Drx go ahead and grab it.
Other then that, I apoligize for stating my key point(s) earlier =\
drx, just wondering, have you asked the guy straight up if it's any different than the dumped ROM?
Other than the list of levels, I cannot see any differences than our current beta..
He's one of those guys who don't play prototypes etc.
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