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Sonic 2 - Multiplayer in all zones

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by VelocitOni, May 3, 2010.

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  1. VelocitOni

    VelocitOni

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    I've lately noticed that people are getting more and more interested on how Sonic the hedgehog 2's multiplayer would've been if it was possible in all zones. I am gladly making this topic for everyone to discuss it to their hearts content so they will not need to derail other topics.
    If the discussion becomes more about the technical programming of it, I hope a user of the staff will kindly move this topic to the Reverse Engineering section/forum.

    Thank-you & Discuss!
     
  2. Phithpleis

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    EDIT: Trash this for me, please. This comment is retarded.
     
  3. Andlabs

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    As many have said before, the problem is that the other zones have something weird going on where attempting to maintain two screens at once would cause the game to slow down. For instance, with water you have to change palettes 4 times per frame while keeping track of scrolling and line count; the Genesis can't do that in time for the next vblank.
     
  4. There are technical set backs. Unless you want to remap all of the zones, all of the objects (well, some of them), rewrite background deformation codes (some I don't think are possible to work in split screen), not to mention rewrite routines so that splitscreen in water zones works, chances of this happening are very low.
     
  5. FraGag

    FraGag

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    Here's what happens when you load the zones with split-screen mode: (if you tried entering split-screen mode in the prototypes, the result is similar)

    Chemical Plant
    [​IMG]

    Aquatic Ruin (with water disabled)
    [​IMG]

    Hill Top
    [​IMG]
    This zone is the prettiest of the bunch. Normal, since it shares most of its tiles with EHZ, which was designed for split-screen. However, there are some glitches in the background and on enemies, and the moving ground doesn't display properly, although collision with it is intact. In Act 1, when I went through the earthquake sequence with Sonic, Tails got stuck when he reached that point.

    Oil Ocean
    [​IMG]

    Metropolis
    [​IMG]

    Sky Chase
    [​IMG]

    Wing Fortress
    [​IMG]

    Death Egg
    [​IMG]

    You're going to have some serious work to do to get those zones to load correctly in split-screen.

    If you want to try it out for yourself, you can use the following PAR code:
    008E52:xxyy
    where xx is the zone ID and yy is the act ID. Enable this code, then go to 2 Player VS and select Emerald Hill to get to the selected level.
     
  6. E-122-Psi

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    I found this site that may have useful stuff on the 2P levels, it also gives details on switching around graphics data (selecting a level via EHZ or CNZ has different effects).

    <a href="http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/spkelly/SGGen.html" target="_blank">http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/spkelly/SGGen.html</a>

    Hill Top seems the nearest to playable though even then isn't really workable due to the aforementioned earthquakes that only activate for Sonic. Also some objects randomly don't load in levels (even if I got past those earthquakes, I got stuck at a deadend where an unloaded spring was necessary).

    There's also the matter of the Act Two reprogramming, the levels that aren't specialized for VS load their 1P boss and capsule, after which the score tally from 1P mode also appears and loads you to the following level in normal gameplay.

    If refinement is possible I imagine Oil Ocean, Hill Top and Metropolis being somewhat fun (Chemical Plant could also be kinda enjoyable without the water since it plays such a small element of the stage).

    Some of these codes also work on hacked versions of the game (eg. Long Version) albeit with the same varied results (Hidden Palace in 2P is kinda cool though).
     
  7. ColinC10

    ColinC10

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    You guys are forgetting about another zone that's accessible in two player split screen:

    [​IMG]

    Obviously this is Green Hill Zone in the Sonic 2 Nick Arcade prototype. The collisions and object graphics are just as broken as they are in single player, but the level graphics and background scrolling look pretty good. Perhaps this zone was used as an early test for the split screen mode.

    This zone has been successfully ported to Sonic 2 before (at least twice, if I remember correctly). If the art and background scrolling were taken from the NA prototype instead of Sonic 1, then I think this zone would have a decent shot at working in 2P VS. There certainly aren't any complicated objects or events to worry about. Perhaps Green Hill is a better split screen candidate than some Sonic 2 zones!
     
  8. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    <!--quoteo(post=450755:date=May 4 2010, 12:48 PM:name=ColinC10)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColinC10 @ May 4 2010, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=450755">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys are forgetting about another zone that's accessible in two player split screen:

    [​IMG]

    Obviously this is Green Hill Zone in the Sonic 2 Nick Arcade prototype. The collisions and object graphics are just as broken as they are in single player, but the level graphics and background scrolling look pretty good. Perhaps this zone was used as an early test for the split screen mode.

    This zone has been successfully ported to Sonic 2 before (at least twice, if I remember correctly). If the art and background scrolling were taken from the NA prototype instead of Sonic 1, then I think this zone would have a decent shot at working in 2P VS. There certainly aren't any complicated objects or events to worry about. Perhaps Green Hill is a better split screen candidate than some Sonic 2 zones!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Isn't there a patch for the proto that actually fixes most of the collision problems (I'm sure I tried a GG code that made it playable except for the tubes).
     
  9. DigitalDuck

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    <!--quoteo(post=450764:date=May 4 2010, 07:08 PM:name=E-122-Psi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (E-122-Psi @ May 4 2010, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=450764">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't there a patch for the proto that actually fixes most of the collision problems (I'm sure I tried a GG code that made it playable except for the tubes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Patch or no patch, I'm sure the collision data can be edited to fit properly.
     
  10. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

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    It's basically impossible because the 8x8 tiles aren't arranged right. I forget the specifics, but Nemesis explained it to me a while ago.


    GHZ worked in the NA beta because they rearranged the tiles, but the level needed so many duplicate tiles that it broke a lot of things.
     
  11. ColinC10

    ColinC10

    Tech Member
    Yes, I know the tiles have to be rearranged in a certain way, and I was aware that this would cause some duplication in existing tiles. On closer inspection, though, I see what you mean when you say this duplication broke things. It actually seems to be the reason most of the object art doesn't display properly. That's annoying, because the same problem is likely to affect any other attempts to "convert" level art to split screen format. I wonder if there's a more efficient way to rearrange the tiles that doesn't require so much duplication.

    Anyway, we're starting to get technical, so I'm going to change the subject slightly. What do people think of the split screen gameplay? I haven't played it enough to get really good at it. Is there one particular tactic that always wins, or is it quite well balanced? Also, what rules would you change? I've always thought that if a player runs out of time (you get 60 seconds after the first player finishes, I think) then you should lose the level, but there doesn't seem to be any penalty. Any thoughts?
     
  12. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    <!--quoteo(post=450791:date=May 4 2010, 08:55 PM:name=ColinC10)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColinC10 @ May 4 2010, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=450791">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, we're starting to get technical, so I'm going to change the subject slightly. What do people think of the split screen gameplay? I haven't played it enough to get really good at it. Is there one particular tactic that always wins, or is it quite well balanced? Also, what rules would you change? I've always thought that if a player runs out of time (you get 60 seconds after the first player finishes, I think) then you should lose the level, but there doesn't seem to be any penalty. Any thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah, this annoys me. I really don't like the fact that one player speeds through to the finish, and then the other player, who doesn't even finish, can still win.
     
  13. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    <!--quoteo(post=450791:date=May 4 2010, 03:55 PM:name=ColinC10)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColinC10 @ May 4 2010, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=450791">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, I know the tiles have to be rearranged in a certain way, and I was aware that this would cause some duplication in existing tiles. On closer inspection, though, I see what you mean when you say this duplication broke things. It actually seems to be the reason most of the object art doesn't display properly. That's annoying, because the same problem is likely to affect any other attempts to "convert" level art to split screen format. I wonder if there's a more efficient way to rearrange the tiles that doesn't require so much duplication.

    Anyway, we're starting to get technical, so I'm going to change the subject slightly. What do people think of the split screen gameplay? I haven't played it enough to get really good at it. Is there one particular tactic that always wins, or is it quite well balanced? Also, what rules would you change? I've always thought that if a player runs out of time (you get 60 seconds after the first player finishes, I think) then you should lose the level, but there doesn't seem to be any penalty. Any thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I thought the five different stats helped give an extra element of skill into it (I kinda get the idea that the countdown is so that the losing player doesn't have the advantage of just going back and getting ring, box and point advantages while the winning player is ironically trapped at the end. so in that manner actually coming first is still the main priority).

    Ultimately I think it's one of the most fun 2 players and is most fitting for the Sonic franchise really (even if it was made for a console that couldn't 'quite' handle it, eg. slowdown issues). I also adored the alterate VS tunes for the levels.

    The special stage tie breakers got a bit tedius after a while, especially since they weren't quite made for competitions (one player is always in front so ultimately it becomes a 'jump-fest' to gain front advantage and scoop all the rings).

    If the other levels aren't possible another possible project could be adding more characters (eg. Knuckles) of course this might leave one of the players having an ability advantage that wasn't present with Sonic and Tails' near identical stats originally.
     
  14. Overlord

    Overlord

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    Yeah, I wouldn't remove the 60 second cap, personally - maybe cap it down to 30 seconds though, to give the other player a chance of winning by doing the other 4 fields. It does add a level of skill to it in that the player who finishes first has to get a decent amount of rings, item boxes and destroyed badniks along the way to ensure their victory.
     
  15. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    I say reduce it to 30, AND say that if you haven't hit the endpost, you lose that act. It's stupid winning because of score, total rings, and item boxes... when you haven't even crossed the line.
     
  16. Also...how can we focus on this version of two player...

    And <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTyi-mTRTGU&feature=related" target="_blank">ignore this</a>?

    Isn't this the improved version of 2P Vs? Why not start with that?
     
  17. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    <!--quoteo(post=450846:date=May 4 2010, 11:15 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ May 4 2010, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=450846">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't this the improved version of 2P Vs? Why not start with that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Nah. S2 2P > S3 2P. Although I do like the idea of having a "Time Trial" mode, but that'll be separate from 2P.
     
  18. dsrb

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    What: 2 cm long zones with no enemies, no rings and different items? Hardly an improvement in my opinion.
     
  19. Ok...maybe its not a total improvement...but I did like the fact that the sprites weren't squished in S3's.

    I also liked the fact that S3's 2P used new zones from the normal ones, giving you more of a reason to play it.
     
  20. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    <!--quoteo(post=450858:date=May 4 2010, 06:31 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ May 4 2010, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=450858">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok...maybe its not a total improvement...but I did like the fact that the sprites weren't squished in S3's.

    I also liked the fact that S3's 2P used new zones from the normal ones, giving you more of a reason to play it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think that was kinda what I liked about Sonic 2's however, the 1P game was the main bulk and if you revised it enough you could use it to your advantage and play it as an extra challenge with a friend (similar to Time Attack in CD and Advance). I like it when you can play a level via different setups and challenges, especially if it adds more friends into the mix.

    Sonic 3 Competition was fun, but it was also very basic, with little rotating levels and sparse innovations, I think it was also a shame it was about the one thing not expanded via S+K.

    Slightly outside topic, I think it's a shame they don't use split screen for co-op games (granted there's a reason with the Mega Drive ones, but the portable ones SAd3 aside (with a screen per handheld) and 3D games could have surely pulled it off).
     
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