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Sonic 2 Development Lore

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Chimes, Apr 5, 2023.

Is it Miles or Tails?

  1. Miles

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  2. Tails

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  3. Both

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  1. RankoChan

    RankoChan

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    Some random RPG project.
    No, both names coexist in the Simon Wai proto in seperate level slots.
     
  2. Rosiero

    Rosiero

    Mmph! Oldbie
    Even this quote says that the concept art came first. Why would Yamaguchi need to show Payne what the level looked like if Payne had already made the art for it?
     
  3. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    Because of the wording "He did one for each level [we] did." Past tense. I knew that concept art of the levels had to exist prior to level art being made, but I thought Yasuhara's sketches were what the artists were working off of, not these. I thought these specific images Yamaguchi made were interpretations of the assets that were there so that Masa had something more detailed to look at when composing.

    What do you people want? An apology? An admission that I'm stupid?
     
  4. Londinium

    Londinium

    People actually read these? Member
    I think you guys need to calm down and realise you've been fighting over unused Sonic zone art and names for days
     
  5. Chimes

    Chimes

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    Sweet jesus guys, I only wanted people to dump their lore here! Alright, just to save face, I'll change the thread name so as to reflect the actual topic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2023
  6. Chimes

    Chimes

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    It's in.
    Now here's all the maps all in one post, for reference.
    Sonic_2_Level_Map_Concept_01.png Sonic_2_Level_Map_Concept_02.png Sonic_2_Level_Map_Concept_03.png Sonic_2_Level_Map_Concept_04.png Sonic_2_Level_Map_Concept_05.png
     
  7. Nik Pi

    Nik Pi

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    Hey, look! I have a proof that Azure Lake has a name "2p vs" originally!
    [​IMG]
    :tinfoil:
    Yes, it's joke, but sometimes it's funny to see how people think that they are right because few protos has this label and don't think that it could be placeholder, and this discussion become a shit. I thought that after creating here we will talk about unused content, sprites, recreations of this, and as result- we came to another discussion about damn hills.
    Who knows, maybe this is a fate of all Sonic 2 beta threads..

    Guys, let's stop talking about dust hill. This is unusefull and has no logic, because this can continue an eternity. Before we will get concept arts, or documents about level naming- we can't say surely about what was it, and what wasn't. I also posted here some stupid things about dust, and it's bad.
    I don't want this thread to rot completely and get bogged down in useless discussions "Mystic Cave is DHZ because it was in few prototypes and developers can't retype level select!!11" vs "Sand Shower is DHZ because few developers who worked on game a long time ago said soo!!!11"

    P.S.: please anybody find and torture ask Yamaguchi or Yasuhara for DUST HILL CONCEPT ART. We need to stop this madness by official information, or this web war will be endless
     
  8. Chimes

    Chimes

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    Remember, kids. :colbert:
    Fake.png
     
  9. Nik Pi

    Nik Pi

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    *Image, that was built from the real done level assets in photoshop or another photoedit tool and sent to magazines to post it there to say the wide public that game is in progress :)



    At least, we saw by ourselves that NA build has the leftovers from early HPZ background and EHZ has some data too
     
  10. RankoChan

    RankoChan

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    ...
    I wasn't even talking about Dust Hill Zone? You are the one that brought it up.
     
  11. Nik Pi

    Nik Pi

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    Oh....

    the-simpsons-homer-simpson.gif

    Anyway, previously here was a lot about it
     
  12. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    @DefinitiveDubs

    I don't think I understand your logic. You are saying that Madness Mountain must be an early Mystic Cave because it couldn't clearly develop into any other level? Couldn't it just have been a level concept that wasn't used? You do entertain this idea but I don't see how it being an early Mystic Cave is more likely.

    It doesn't look anything like Mystic Cave to me. It reminds me a lot of Marble Zone actually. It even has very similar torches on the wall as Marble Zone. Also has a brick tileset and gated windows on the wall.

    upload_2023-4-15_14-59-53.png

    upload_2023-4-15_14-59-4.png

    upload_2023-4-15_15-2-1.png

    I think it looks like the concept artist drew a new Zone and had Marble Zone on the mind. But would have a twist by putting a mountain as a background that could be seen through that gated windows (as opposed to Marble Zone where you can't see anything).

    How does this develop into Mystic Cave? I don't see it.
     

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  13. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    [​IMG]
    1. I have mentioned in previous posts how it was similar to MCZ in some ways, namely the drawbridge gimmick and the brick tiling being more similar to MCZ than anything in MZ.
    2. The point of my argument isn't that it represents MCZ, it's that it can't represent anything else. By process of elimination, MCZ is the only zone that makes sense based on what we know about the stage (namely that it wasn't originally a cave) and the levels that were actively in production (not "planned", not an idea, not in the concept maps, not in Yasuhara's timeline, but actively in production). To assume otherwise is to invent a hypothetical scenario that has no evidence to support it. You might think my evidence (mentioned across multiple previous posts) is weak, but at least it's something.
    3. This argument is going in circles and it's not even relevant to the topic anymore.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2023
  14. Chimes

    Chimes

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    This is the topic!
     
  15. Overlord

    Overlord

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    I can't believe it's been twenty one years since I joined this community and people are still debating whether or not Dust Hill Zone was the desert level or Mystic Cave Zone. I thought we'd established it was the latter ages ago, why has this been re-opened?
     
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  16. Chimes

    Chimes

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    I made note of that too: if I'm not mistaken this picture is old enough to vote.
     
  17. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    I'm not sure if you're replying to me or someone else in this thread, but I never once claimed that Dust Hill was the desert level. Not even once.

    Yes, it was supposedly "solved" that Dust Hill was MCZ with the release of the August prototype, however there is enough evidence to support the theory that Dust Hill was neither the desert level nor MCZ, but an unknown third level that Yasuhara dreamed up that never actually entered production, and only exists as far as a title on the level select. Because the level select predates Yamaguchi's artwork.

    There can be multiple theories, you know. It's not as if once the community comes to a consensus, everyone else needs to shut the fuck up and no one else is allowed to contribute ideas for the rest of time. Remember, it was supposedly "solved" that MCZ 2-player was intended for Hidden Palace all the way back in 2014, but enough new evidence has come out since then to support the idea that the Unused theme was, in fact, intended for the zone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2023
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  18. Despatche

    Despatche

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    I think we'd be best served by someone picking up where Sonic 2 Long Version left off. The prototype absolutely did not confirm anything, and we are assuming massively based on personal wants. Thus, at this point, it'd be best to completely disregard vague "intent" altogether and just recognize that "Dust Hill" is a perfect name for an Arizona-style desert level. Because... it is. Especially in the context of the Sonic series. Much more honest personal want.

    "Sand Shower" is probably just another beach level or something, it's not like Sonic 2 didn't already have 100 of those.

    And yes, Madness Mountain is clearly Marble. However, this does not preclude MM being scrapped altogether and replaced with Mystic Cave, or some specific elements of MM being worked into MC somehow, etc.

    Hmm, maybe you could work this "mountain" idea into a CD R2 interpretation somehow. Somewhat related, I feel like "Dubious Depths" and "Ridicule Root" are perfectly fine names for two separate zones. Does CD really need more zones, though...

    ...God, what if "Rock World" is just Hidden Palace... These maps are dangerous. All they do is make people angry. Evil, cursed maps.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2023
  19. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    @Overlord I think this discussion is warranted seeing as @DefinitiveDubs is putting forward the fairly original claim that Mystic Cave actually developed from Madness Mountain. No Dust Hills in sight! So I think there's some genuine merit to the discussion here?

    Now @DefinitiveDubs I'm actually quite intrigued by your theory so don't take it the wrong way. Lol.

    You say the level was actively in production but couldn't it have been dropped after the concept art stage? I'm a bit confused about why you are insistent that its design must have been carried on into the game. Why did Madness Mountain get into Sonic 2 as a retooled Mystic Cave but Ocean Wind didn't get into the game? Am I missing something here? That's the main problem I have with your theory. You seem to think it's a given that Madness Mountain must have made it into Sonic 2 in at least some form but I don't see why it had to do so.

    Your two most substantial points are that Mystic Cave has the drawbridge and brick tiles which are similar to the Madness Mountain art.

    To be honest, I don't find the brick tile argument convincing at all. It's just the standardised way of presenting bricks in Sonic games. Looks exactly like Marble Zone and Aquatic Ruin.

    I think there is something to the drawbridge argument. But that could simply be one level gimmick transferred over to to Mystic Cave. But it is something I'll give you that.
     
  20. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    I just noticed that Dust Hill is placed next to Oil Ocean on the time maps and that Oil Ocean is the level after Mystic Cave in Sonic 2. Lol!

    upload_2023-4-16_0-25-30.png

    [​IMG]

    Checkmate Sonic fans. Mystic Cave is Dust Hill confirmed.

    #thetruthiswedon'tknow
     
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