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Sonic 2 Development Lore

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Chimes, Apr 5, 2023.

Is it Miles or Tails?

  1. Miles

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  2. Tails

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  3. Both

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  1. saxman

    saxman

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    They're both waltz songs. Personally, I think that may be pure coincidence. The HPZ song doesn't quite fit the mood of a special stage. It fits the mood of something lost or mysterious, or even nostalgic as was previously stated.
     
  2. LockOnRommy11

    LockOnRommy11

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    Oh, I don’t want my post to be misunderstood. I believe it’s Chaos Emerald related, not special stage specific. Hidden Palace was intricately related to where the Chaos Emeralds came from, and so it’s possible the similarities are more than coincidental.
     
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  3. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    Speaking of which, I've been wondering when it was decided to tie Hidden Palace to the Chaos Emeralds and Super Sonic. Was it after the time travel plot was scrapped, as a way of repurposing Hidden Shrine/Palace? Or was it decided since the beginning, with the area being used both for time travel and for acquiring Super Sonic? Would the Chaos Emeralds have been somehow related to time travel?

    If it's the second, and the pyramid is supposed to be Hidden Shrine, that might be why it's in all maps except the last. If the plan was that the player would be teleported there upon collecting all emeralds, it would have made sense for it to be permanently present in the map across the different eras. Presumably, the fact it's not in the final map implies that you had until the previous era (the ruined past) to unlock Super Sonic.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2023
  4. Gestalt

    Gestalt

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    It's Knuckles' scrapped Sonic 2 theme. Every time you collect a Chaos Emerald, a cutscene would play where he speaks to you through telepathy to warn you of the dangers of the power of the gems if misused...

    What I'm trying to say is: It sounds like Knuckles' theme, if he took his job of guarding the Master Emerald more seriously.
     
  5. GoldeMan

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    This is all speculation on my end so don't take this as fact.

    This is actually pretty similar to a theory I have been kicking around for a few weeks. The idea that Hidden Palace (or WARP POINT! Or whatever) utilized the Chaos emeralds more directly to progress through the game. Sort of similar (in theory) to how later games used the emeralds to hide secret levels and such.

    Although there isn't much weight to my theory beyond the idea of Hidden Palace being a sort of "WARP POINT" between time zones the context of how both elements exist could bridge the gap. We know Hidden Palace was intended to be a cutscnee at one point and involved chaos emeralds. The infamous Warp Point we know less about but we can atleast assume to some capacity that it too is a cutscenes type area or atleast substantially smaller then a full zone. What better reason do we have to teleport Sonic to Hidden Palace there if not to do something more serious then just reward him Super Sonic (which wasn't even implemented until much later). Maybe he teleports there to go through different time zones? Maybe Hidden Palace is bridge between zones, lost in time, would explain why he specifically teleports there and uses the emeralds to do so. Maybe you unlock Time Zones the more emeralds you get?

    I mean even if we look at the 8-Bit version, which we don't really know how much overlap there was, it too has a level that is secret, locked behind the chaos emeralds. "Crystal Egg Zone" which isn't related to anything from the 16bit version but is semi futuristic atleast in aesthetic. But that is probably coincidence.

    Again it's possible (likely) this is all nonsense, or it was dropped early early, I just think it is an interesting thought while we are on the topic of what the true scope of how Warping between time zones worked and how it related to Hidden Palace and its intended cutscene mayhem.

    STI (the American side anyhow) always had super ambitious games, whether they worked is per the player, but their previous game Kid Chameleon is proof enough of their ambitions with it's branching paths and absurd length. Would not be surprised if Sonic 2 was caught up in that ambitious openendedness.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2023
  6. Brainulator

    Brainulator

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    Minor note: Sonic 1's Special Stages still exist in the Simon Wai and August 21 prototypes of Sonic 2.
     
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  7. Sonic needed the chaos emeralds to activate the warp points in order to time travel. Is that what you're getting at? I almost wonder, with a map system and being able to go back to previous levels instead of being so linear, it would make a lot of sense. Just my 2 cents~
     
  8. Nik Pi

    Nik Pi

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    I think the map would be like in Super Mario world, because it's really goes well with all this concept arts.

    Also I'm still think, that we hasn't a really big piece of Sonic 2 development history. I mean, I sure somewhere deep inside SEGA archives are placed builds (or at least digitizers) with all these deserts, winters, cyber city (btw, where are scans? How long we wait, 3 weeks? I don't remember). If we still find from day to day new stuff, would be really cool, if we'll find soon new proto, maybe even with previously unseen content... :eng99:
     
  9. GoldeMan

    GoldeMan

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    Yes, apologies if my initial explanation was poor, I think (or more speculate) that Chaos Emeralds would be used for progression as you go through the game in that manner, I mean there isn't much proof to that being the case (unless you want to count Super Sonic as a last minute addition to replace the original point of the emeralds) but it's an interesting thought.
     
  10. That would've been a cool idea. Though judging by the maps, it looks like it could've possibly done like Crash Bandicoot's 1's map, before Crash Bandicoot even existed.
     
  11. Honestly this might even explain why Hill Top Zone and Rock World are listed twice in the maps. Once you unlocked a map you could travel back and forth between them.

    Hey to be honest even if this is where the gravy train of new Sonic 2 leaks ended, this still gives anyone a cool jumping off point to make a new version of Sonic 2. I'm now drooling over the ideas of a level select map and changing environments based on Time Zone... AGGGHHH Its such a good idea! I bet this is how they felt back in early 92 in the planning stages before they realized they had like NO time to implement any of this.
     
  12. Forte

    Forte

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    Sonic 2 is great, but reading about what it could have been, gives me goosebumps.
     
  13. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    You know, one thing that I've always found kind of puzzling is that Sonic 2 has thumbnails for all of its zones, when they're only used in the level select screen.

    Well, the multiplayer level select screen uses some of them, but only for 3 zones (plus the special stage). So why would they draw them for all zones? Just for the level select screen? It feels weird to me that they would put so much effort into a hidden screen that most players wouldn't see. Compare to the level select screens in S1 and S3K, which didn't have nearly as much effort put into them. The former was just a palette swap of the title screen, while the latter simply recycled the Sonic 2 assets (which looked extremely out of place in S3K).

    Which leads me to speculate that the thumbnails might have been planned for something else that was scrapped, like:
    - The potential map screen. Perhaps it would have shown a thumbnail of the current selected zone?
    - A file select screen, assuming the prior speculation that Sonic 2 would have used save files ala S3K due to its planned length is true.
    - Or perhaps the multiplayer mode would covered all zones, before it was decided to limit it to 3 zones and the special stage.
     
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  14. rata

    rata

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    No, the game progression according to the slides was 100% linear. You would just happen to go twice to the past (one fine and another after a big ass tsunami).
     
  15. Jucei

    Jucei

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    I definitely think it's for the multiplayer mode, I don't think it was ever just going to be those specific 3 zones. There are remnants of other zones being made (but incomplete) to be compatible for multiplayer mode, and I really don't think they specifically made songs for 3 random levels for 2 player (like seriously, the more we learn about Sonic 2's development, the more I question whether or not people actually think there's a genuine reason why they would compose only 3 2p songs for 3 random levels, or it's just nostalgia).
     
  16. saxman

    saxman

    Oldbie Tech Member
    The first map only indicates linear gameplay. It is peculiar that the arrows are missing from other maps, leading me to wonder if the player would have more freedom in selecting a level after the first five were completed.
     
  17. GoldeMan

    GoldeMan

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    That is an interesting point! I wasn't intending to imply that the game was going to be *really* open. But the idea that maybe the first island was linear as an introduction to the game then once you go back to the past then that is when the game opens up. Or if not that then maybe you could just revisit previous levels after completing them. The lack of arrows, as you pointed out, could imply this and would make sense why they are absent later.
     
  18. RankoChan

    RankoChan

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    This is something I've pondered about too, as it makes sense to do it that way if the maps worked like Mario 3/World. Everything up to Tropical Plant would've been linear, but after that you would be free to tackle the remaining levels on a given map in any order. Completing all of the levels on a map would activate the warp point and allow you to move on to the next time period/map.
     
  19. Sanqui

    Sanqui

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    Worth noting for those who aren't aware, gamedev legend Mark Cerny had a producer role on both Sonic 2 and Crash Bandicoot. It's known that the team envisaged Crash Bandicoot as a way to bring Sonic to 3D, to the point where the game held the monicker "Sonic's Ass game" internally. So looking for ideas Cerny may have recycled in Crash isn't such a bad idea.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2023
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  20. GoldeMan

    GoldeMan

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    Very good point! We know the Sonic 1 styled level select lasted in the game until Beta 7 when it was finally changed to the final version with the map icons, yet... Its clear that the game was in crunch overdrive and so wouldn't (or shouldn't) have the time to make those level select icons. Wing Fortrss and Sky Chases icons share the same graphics except for the titual Wing Fortress in one and the Tornado in the other... so when in development did they come from?
     
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