Sonic 1 and 2 getting the Sonic CD treatment by Taxman and Stealth

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. Machenstein

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    I can see that Marble Garden, Carnival Night, Ice Cap and Launch Base are missing. That's not to mention competition levels such as Balloon Park and Endless Mine. Carnival Night, Ice Cap and Launch Base did have their tracks replaced for Sonic & Knuckles Collection, but not Marble Garden for some reason. Interesting.

    It could be just a coincidence in Pocket Adventure's case though. There wasn't an ice level in the game so of course there was no place for Ice Cap's music. That's not to say the music choices in the game made much sense to begin with. Desert Palace for Gigantic Angel? Sky Sanctuary for Chaotic Space? Well okay.
     
  2. Hez

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    I always wondered if those all were just placeholders. Then, for some reason, they had to release what they had.
     
  3. Xilla

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    It always seemed odd to me that the Sonic World theme from Sonic Jam was the only non-S3K track included (barring the original ones, which were mostly based on Sonic 3's title screen theme anyway).

    Wasn't there a story going around a few years ago that MJ "composed" Hydrocity Zone Act 1's track by humming it down the phone? That one is used in Aquatic Relix Act 2. (With the HCZ Act 2 music being used in Secret Plant Act 2)
     
  4. Blastfrog

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    While I'm sure the possible legal issues are a big part of it, I wonder if there's other factors involved (not budget). Because SoJ can be weird about the original games, it seems, maybe some powerful members have disowned it, considering it "too different" from 1/2/CD? There's probably not much of anything to back that up at all, and I admit that it doesn't make sense, but I do kinda wonder as irrational as it is.

    Regarding music, my guess is that only a handful (but not the majority) of the tracks in S3 are the problematic ones even back in 1994. I'm pretty sure only the tracks replaced in the PC version identify which ones those are. Note how S&K redid the Knuckles and miniboss theme without touching anything else replaced in the PC version, this implies that they were trying to avoid further trouble even before S&K was done. The PC version (and Pocket Adventure) retained the S3 themes like the title, invincibility, 1-up, etc, I find it more likely that S&K got new main themes just to make it feel like a new game and not (as obvious of) a second half.

    None of which include any of the tracks replaced in the PC version, with the admitted exception of the S3 Knuckles theme. Perhaps it was considered generic enough (only a drum beat and the voices heard later on are never heard in-game), along with the fact that it might be harder to prove in court that it really is the song given how it's pretty much been reduced to noise channels. Another possibility is that it was simply a mistake, just like the one that was made when Spinball initially shipped with Nakamura's music because the devs were completely out of the loop about the licensing situation.

    As Tiddles said, I'm glad that I'm not alone in this thinking. Given the release history, this fits pretty well and would make sense from a licensing perspective. "You can use our music in its original form only and in no other way", rereleases and ports using recordings not counting as different while any deliberate tweaks/remakes does count as outside of its original form.

    I wonder how legal it would be to include the original SMPS files and have an emulator play those while the Retro engine does the rest (including the non-limbo'd songs) in a theoretical remake? In other words, pull a "Sonic Jam/Mega Collection" only on the handful of problem tracks. If emulating the original data is out of the question, a Mega Drive recording from real hardware wouldn't be so bad. Maybe the MD could be modded to provide crisper sound output if that were the only option?

    If it's not an option at all to use the original S3 music in any form, I think the S3 PC soundtrack but with the S&K Knuckles theme instead would be the best solution.
     
  5. muteKi

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    Perhaps the oddest thing of all is that Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection didn't even have sound emulation, and instead the audio was wav files instead, and there was no lock-on support at all.

    This might be suspicious but on the other hand, something would have had to have changed between the release of Sonic Mega Collection (+) and that point to actually matter, and could just be backbone being backbone under Sega's absurd deadlines.
     
  6. Chimera

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    I'm just wondering why this is still relevant 2 decades later.

    Also when are we going to continue to talk about tax/stealth / move all these posts into "S3 Music Liscence Issues Circlejerk: Round 12" ?
     
  7. GeneHF

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    Basically, no one who knows anything about that topic officially is going to talk about it, we'll continue to blindly speculate and the circle will continue.

    I'm happy with just the usual "legal reasons, beware of hungry vulture-attorneys." It's a shame since Sonic 3 is my favorite in the whole franchise, but my carts still work (but have trouble saving) and so does my Genesis. And of course, there's no shortage of "extra" utilities to play it on other devices.
     
  8. Blastfrog

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    A few quick questions about the Retro engine:


    1. What is its horizontal pixel count in 16:9 widescreen (targeting square pixels with a 240 line count)? 426? 427? 428? I can't be bothered to count individual pixels and quick image manipulations (and custom pattern overlays) have failed to provide me with a clear answer.

    2. What is the sampling method used for the "sharp" filter? As far as I can guess, it's scaled up to the nearest multiple rounded up to the target screen resolution in nearest neighbor, and is then downscaled using a sampling method. Is it linear, cubic, super sampling, or something else entirely?

    3. When finally drawing to the screen buffer, does it scale directly to the screen borders with absolutely no cut-off (as in all pixels are fully visible) or does it crop the edges in order to preserve square pixels and an even number of horizontal pixels on the "clean/raw pixel image buffer" (for lack of a better term)? I would guess that if the latter is done that perhaps the raw buffer could be 428 and just cut off 2/3rds of each side column (but it doesn't look like it does this as far as I can tell from a glance).
     
  9. BlackHole

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    Might want to look into replacing the FRAM chip then, if you're having trouble with save files.
     
  10. SpeedStarTMQ

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    Really? I had no idea! Is that for all the games in that collection? Do we know why either? Surely emulating would be easier.
     
  11. Covarr

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    This is the first I've heard of this, but it would help to explain this quote

    Now, as easy as it would've been to just include a pre-locked-on ROM, I can only conclude that if he's telling the truth, then I can only assume that Backbone was entire unaware this was even possible, and thought they'd have to manually implement a lock-on feature in the emulator. Even so, this doesn't make much sense, because not a one of the other bonus games requires any such feature, and I'd think including them wouldn't be difficult either. But if they were manually reimplementing the sound in every single game, I could easily see how there could be a time conflict in trying to do both.

    Still incompetent, though.
     
  12. OKei

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    I won't pretend to be an expert here, but that sounds like substandard work to me.

    I've never played or know much about SUGC, so I run the risk getting shot for sounding naive for what I'm about to say. You would think implimenting a few dozen (presumely emulated) MD games onto, at a minimum, a dual-layered DVD (for XB360) wouldn't be difficult. But then you don't have proper sound emulation AND you're using .wav as a substitute? I understand the Yamaha YM2612 soundchip isn't exactly easy to accurately emulate, but doing all that extra work would ultimately not have led to improving the sound in the original games. and having all that extra disc space taken up jeopardizes any opportunity for more games or any more cool bonus to be included. It sounds like what they did was a waste of development time and disc space, and a problem that they introduced upon themselves. They might as well have grabbed ROMs from some pirate site and snatched an emulator (isn't that what they did that one Sonic collection?) and called it a day. For being "faced with an either/or scenario", they should never have encountered it in the first place.

    As for the Lock-On trouble, again should have gotten a ROM+Emu. Lacking the greatest Sonic game ever was a sad consequence.

    Actually, somehow this reminds me of the emulation troubles Sonic Team had trying to get Sonic CD for Mega Collection on GameCube. Words from Sonic Cult:

    During their spree of shitty rehashes and even shittier ports, SEGA decided on a project.

    They recently had created a Sega Genesis/Sega CD emulator for the Nintendo Gamecube. Unfortunately, no one seemed interested in this emulator. Due to lower level management suggestions, an email was fired to Sonic Team about this project. A few tests of various ROMs and Sonic Team wanted it. It began as nothing more than a black screen with a list of the games, with an arrow the user could move up and down. After a while, they tried to create a small graphical menu and add Sonic CD. And this is where the nightmare began. The SEGA CD portion of the emulator was so piss poor it couldn't run Sonic CD. So they worked on it over and over and over, but they could not make it work.

    Yuji Naka, attempting to not look like a complete asshole, stated that Sonic CD was removed due to space issues. This however, wasn't true. The reality of the fact was, they wanted to use the ADX format for the audio tracks for Sonic CD, when it had originally was using one of the Gamecube's compression formats. Appearently they couldn't get the audio working with the gamecube format. They attempted recoding the Sega CD emulator, but they just didn't have the time to do it and make their quarter earning reports. So Sonic CD was lost once again to the realm of Sega CD and cheap, old PCs.

    These sorts of anecdotes leave me more appreciative of the recent remastered Sonic efforts on mobile.
     
  13. celebi23

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    Been awhile since I posted but, I've got some findings. So, I recently got the Android TV developer kit in the mail (ADT-1) and, thanks to my rooted Nexus 7, was able to get the 3 games onto the ADT-1.

    [​IMG]

    Sonic 1 & 2 run flawlessly. Sonic CD doesn't seem to play well with the controller included with the ADT-1. The ADT-1 (and I'm assuming the final version of Android TV too) run Android L Preview. It'd be fantastic if Taxman updated the games to "officially" support Android TV as there are some games that have already done so.
     
  14. GeneHF

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    How easy/hard would that be? It's only a bit of a sting that I lost some of my files since 1996, but I always figured it's because of dirty contacts thinking the game has no saves. It only ever happens when I lock on with Sonic and Knuckles.
     
  15. The Taxman

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    I've actually already updated the code in all 3 games to "just work" with the TV (I.e. some slight changes in menus and no need to turn off virtual controls), but it's not currently live. I assume once Android TV launches properly it'll be pushed out.
     
  16. celebi23

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    Awesome! Thanks for the response. Your dedication to these games is just awesome :D Can't wait to "officially" play the games on my Android TV.
     
  17. BlackHole

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    You just open the cart, solder out the old chip and solder in the new one if I recall correctly. Dirty Contacts shouldn't affect the memory exclusively, but I only dabble in electronics for a hobby so you might wish to look up someone who knows more about it then me.
     
  18. RetroKoH

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    WARNING - I apologize if this had been pointed out previously...

    On the topic of the iOS games... did anyone else notice that you can get a 100,000 pt. bonus in Sonic 2, by waiting until 9:59 to finish the level? I decided to try it out tonight for kicks, not even giving thought to what I was doing, and low and behold I got ze bonus!
    Dunno if it got put in the other 2 remakes or not. Possibility exists, since this feature WAS only in S3K originally. I'd check but my iPod is currently dead on battery ATM.

    WOW, I missed that... then again I'm not a Twitter follower of either and I rarely stray out from the E&RE thread most of the time.

    I guess it's really not happening then. BUT then why would SEGA allow a tease of the third one at the end of Sonic 2 Remastered???
     
  19. Lanzer

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    Because its not really a "no never in a 1,000,000,000,000,000 years!" its just a "can't do it at this time due to _____". its not like it'll never happen but its just gonna be a while.
     
  20. RetroKoH

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    Fair point... Now this:
    Anyone else not notice this or am I late to the dance AGAIN??