Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, Mar 27, 2013.
IIRC the Knuckles in Sonic 2 level select code works.
*sighs* that was disappointing to me too, hope I'm not some sort of weird ass for thinking it woulda been cool to either have that be the track for HPZ in this, or have the choice to use that track available to players.
Track #10 was to be used for the original Hidden Palace, but it was little more than an interactive cutscene. That old music was very slow, quite majestic sounding and was a really rather repetitive. This new Hidden Palace is actually a pretty fast zone with the pre-historic motif amplified somewhat. Using Mystic Cave 2P is a lot more fitting this time around, and that's why they used it.
My recollection from Taxman and Stealth's statement was that MC 2P was always intended to be HP's track. Track #10 was meant to be for a cutscene at the end of the zone. Stealth stated on twitter that Masato Nakamura's track notes for the official soundtrack corroborates this.
Your recollections are wrong, yhey never said such a thing:
It was later reworked as a full looping song and assigned to the Hidden Palace slot, though, so having it play during the level were their final intentions, up until it was removed.
Many elements evolve during the development of a game, changing shape and position until they find the final use for them... That's why I think that's more relevant than the placeholder music it had in the prototypes.
Do we know that for sure, though? As far as I can recall, #10 has always looped. That could just mean it was never given a proper ending and got lumped into the Hidden Palace slot when it all got scrapped.
We know because the original version doesn't loop.
I get that, but it was never finished in the game. To me that says the developers started on it, put it aside to work on other parts of the game, and ultimately never finished it.
Just because it was made to loop doesn't mean it was always meant to work as a full zone track. It still wasn't expanded, it's just the same few second track. I would say that the song used in the actual playable level is the safer bet for the correct song. Considering how the final version's Hidden Palace is nothing but junk data, I would imagine that the same goes for the song assigned to it. Leftovers with no context.
Few second track? It lasts at least forty-eight seconds before looping, just like most other tracks in the game (including the two-player Mystic Cave theme). There are other songs in the sound test that don't loop at all, and Track #10 wasn't one of them. That, plus the fact that the song existed in beta builds after the Simon Wai prototype at least partially hints that it was meant to be a full-fledged song at some point, even if it was a last-minute decision before Hidden Palace was scrapped.
To further back up ICEknight's point, I think this old magazine clip is worth mentioning. When one of the editors was asked about Track #10, he or she replied that the song was indeed used as background music in one of the preview builds, but apparently, that doesn't apply to any of the builds that are currently dumped, since it either wasn't accessible (without hacking) despite being present on the stage select menu, or it was removed altogether, just as it was in the final. So, what's my point? The editor could have been talking about the third beta, which was most likely one of the prototypes that were shown in the Solid Gold Guide. Seeing how one of these builds still featured the Wood Zone, which was nowhere to be found as of the fourth beta, I'd say there's a large chance that Hidden Palace was fully playable in its original glory, complete with Track #10 being used as the default background music.
Regarding that magazine clip about a fan asking about mystery tune #10, the Andromeda replies that both Tracks #10 and Hidden Palace were in previous builds of Sonic 2, not that Track 10 was used in HPZ. The magazine probably didn't mean that both belonged to each other. Andromeda also probably didn't intend to say that both items were removed from the game released in November 1992, since tune #10 is in the sound test of our final releases.
I'd just like the option available so for those of us who chose to believe that track #10 was meant to be HPZ can enjoy it. I'm of the personal belief that not 1 of the 2p songs fits in any of the 1p stages, and this is no exception. In fact, given that HPZ was made a MCZ alternate path, I'd rather it of played MCZ 1p's music.
You guys are thinking too much about this in terms of black and white.
Things are rarely ever that simple. It could have been intended and not intended for use with Hidden Palace in different points of the dev cycle. Hell, Metropolis Zone music could have been intended for use in Chemical Plant Zone at one point and no one would ever have known.
What makes it into the release is all that matters. Stop sperging about prototypes and betas.
Do you know where you are boy?
No but really, I don't think this speculation will really go anywhere either, until someone familiar with the situation outright says what was intended for what.
But yeah, my point is someone familiar with the situation outright saying what was intended for what at a given point of time in dev is still ultimately meaningless.
At one point of time Labyrinth Zone was intended to be the 2nd zone. We all know how that ultimately turned out.
Similarly at one point of time #10 could have been Hidden Palace Music. At another MC2P could have been Hidden Palace Music. Ultimately all of that doesn't matter because the final product didn't have Hidden Palace Zone. And now two decades later we have an 'officially endorsed' Hidden Palace Zone with _____ for its music. That's pretty much the end of the story.
And I'm saying this having incorporated #10 into Before the Sequel's Lost Levels music. That's a fan easter egg, nothing more, and no replacement for the official stance on it.
(And before you say anything, yes, SoA official stances, Robotnik, Mohawk Sonic, yadda yadda yadda)
Track 10 was always meant to be a cutscene music piece, I know this for a fact but I thought that much was obvious when one actually listens to it. It was intended to be used when Sonic morphs into Super Sonic.
I'm not sure if Mystic Cave 2 player was ever intended to be used for Hidden Palace Zone, but Track 10 was never supposed to be used as the level theme.
In fact track #10 is too slow for a morphing scene IMO. It's a mystery.
It could have fit as a credits tune.
I don't see why it couldn't fit for that purpose. It could involve more actions leading up to it, perhaps running and then throwing the emeralds up in the air like the Sonic 1 ending.
I'm of the opinion that Oil Ocean's music was originally for Dust Hill, Casino Night 2P was for Oil Ocean, Emerald Hill 2P was for Wood Zone, and Mystic Cave 2P was for Hidden Palace. Of course, there's no way of knowing this for sure, but I think it lines up pretty well. The track used for Oil Ocean in the final is there in the Wai beta, yet is unused. Track 10 isn't in the Wai beta, so the SMPS rendition probably wasn't ready yet. I doubt that that they would have wanted to reuse tracks for the different zones, so after cutting DHZ, HPZ and WZ, there was no home for the extra tracks, so they figured to reuse them as alternate themes in 2P mode.
It seems that the music was done in two passes, once to get it in the game, and a second one to refine it since they probably weren't satisfied with how it sounded. Whatever the original musical intentions, MCZ 2P fits HPZ better, especially the new fast paced layout for it.
Track 10 was going to be used after Sonic transformed into Super Sonic and flew out of the Hidden Palace. It was always going to be cutscene music.
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