So, who really created Sonic ?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Magelan, Dec 26, 2019.

  1. Magelan


    Hello everyone,

    I'm working on a video documentary / retrospective about the early days of the Sonic Team (from Sonic 1 to Yasuhara's departure/SA1, roughly). However, I'm having a hard time establishing a coherent chronology for the creation of Sonic and the development of Sonic 1, because everyone involved seems to have a different story everytime they talk about it.

    I know about the "Development" page of Sonic Retro and it helped me a lot, but I found out about other pieces of information in my research that was not included in it, that may or may not be relevant. I wanted to share my findings and my attempt at understanding what happened, and see if people agree with me or not. Sorry for the wall of text. Also english is not my first language, so be nice.

    So, what I "knew" :
    - Sega was searching for a new mascot with an internal competition
    - Ohshima was working on something called "Twinkle Star" before teaming up with Naka who wanted to make a fast game, their first concept involves a rabbit
    - In some version of the story, the rabbit wins the internal competition
    - Yasuhara was invited by Cerny to join STI, but his visa was delayed, so he joined Ohshima and Naka to work on the game design
    - They think about using one button, which leads to a "round" character, which leads to 1) early eggman 2) hedgehog 3) armadillo (and maybe the dog, and bart simpson ?)
    - In some version of the story, the hedgehog wins the internal competition
    - Sega USA (at the time, Katz, Al Nielsen, and maybe Madeline Schroeder ?) hates it and wants the project dead. They contact an american artist for a counter proposal
    - But Katz is replaced with Kalinske, and being from Mattel, he sees the potential of the character, but finds it to "japanese". So they send Schroeder to Japan and she "fixes" the character (takes out the fangs, takes out Madonna, "softens" the vibe of Sonic), Sonic Team doesn't like it, but they finally agree to do it
    - So at some point Madonna is out, so is the original cast of villain, the early "round" character comes back as eggman/robotnik
    - Someone contacts the guy from Dreams come true to make the music
    - Game comes out...

    What I always found weird about this story :
    - The game never had a "producer" or even a "director". Yes, Yasuhara is the lead designer (and probably the main reason why those games work so well) but I never thought of him as a team leader. Even when he went to STI for Sonic 2, he still wasn't a director.
    - Other thing that ticks me off about the lack of producer/director, is that when Ohshima and Naka speaks about the early days of development, it seems like a very "cool" work environment. Like Ohshima was working on something, and I decided to give him a hand, and then Yasuhara kinda wandered off the airport so we took him in. It seems completely at odds with the culture at Sega at the time, and accounts from Yu Suzuki & co.
    - The "mascot competition". The result is always changing depending on who or when they tell this story, and even for Sega, choosing the official mascot of the whole company with an internal competition seems like the stupidest idea ever conceived. Imagine actually choosing the mascot, making a huge marketing event around it, and having a terrible game (or a game that bombs) associated with the character, and being stuck with that character.
    - The Sega USA "Mother of Sonic" story. I'm gonna forget the fact that Al Nilsen (and I want to say probably Schroeder, but I'm not sure if she was at Sega at the time) DESPISED the character so much a few months before Kalinske came into the picture, but then, had a revelation about the genius of Sonic, and just wanted to take out the fangs and give him red shoes, BUT. I have never seen a concept art of Sonic with fangs or without red shoes, even the more early ones. Considering this is true, and SOJ somehow sent the only drawing of Sonic with fangs and no red shoes, that just happens to burn in the fax machine right after that, I can't even begin to imagine Naka (or, anyone in the Japanese management) agreeing with the changes, at this stage in development (this would be AFTER Kalinske arrived at the company, so, let's say November / December 1990, 6 month before release). This is the guy who accused Peter Moore of being a liar when he told the board that the american public didn't care about Sega anymore during the Dreamcast era. Imagining his reaction when some random marketing lady from the US (and this is not a rant against Schroeder, she may be a secret genius or something for all I know) comes to Japan and tell him "you know, this character, and the plot you imagined ? i really don't think the american public is going to like it, so I made a few modification" is actually really funny.

    And then, I found some new or rare interviews :
    - the whole GDC presentation with yasuhara / ohshima. They basically explain the creation of the character, and that they went to the internal competition of Sega with a complete concept (like, no fangs, no Madonna, eggman in)
    - this interview with ohshima/naka : It's a translation of a 2016 interview. It's in french, it's long, but it's interesting.

    Ohshima basically says that those drawings
    Were made for the Tokyo Toy Show in June 1990, so 3 to 4 months before Kalinske arrival (if the actual demo wasn't enough)

    Naka also says that Sonic 1) never won the "mascot competition" because no decision was ever taken and 2) was never designed FOR this "mascot competition" who came in the middle of the development (I remember Yasuhara saying something similar, but i can't seem to find this particular interview). Ohshima agrees with that, and just tell the usual "i made my presentation with a sonic toy" story, but without the "sonic won the contest" ending. it just won a place with 7 other finalists

    They created some kind of carving of the character before finalizing the design of Sonic, so I guess it took a while.

    Naka seems to think that Madonna was still Sonic's "official" girlfriend at the time of Sonic CD so he didn't understand why they created Amy Rose.

    - The Genesis Collected Works, where Kotaro Hayashida (from Alex Kidd, also lead on the first phantasy star) basically said that Sonic began, like Alex Kidd, as an answer to Mario 3, and incorporated a lot of ideas from some unknown Alex Kidd game. He also said that he CREATED the initial concept, and as head of departement, put Yasuhara in charge. I see no reason for him to lie...

    - This interview with Mark Cerny where he says that management of SOA waited a long time to "greelight" Sonic 2.


    with all this

    I propose the following timeline :
    - Kotaro Hayashida works on Phantasy Star, and meets Naka and Ohshima
    - The Sega Genesis comes out, does well, but the NES with Mario 3 still sells more. The Megadrive really needs some kind of platformer.
    - They make another Alex Kidd, with Yasuhara as junior designer. It bombs. The franchise is dead.
    - Hayashida begins to work on some kind of new "Mario Killer", and while recycling some of his idea for Alex Kidd, searches for a completely different set up. Ohshima begins to work on a main character (human twins who can travel back in time, twinkle star)
    - Naka finishes his work on Ghouls'n Ghost and asks to be put on a racing game. Hayashida (and Toyoda, I suppose) put him with Ohshima, the idea is to make a "fast action game"
    - While all this is happening, Yasuhara is waiting to join STI
    - Ohshima and Naka proposes the "rabbit concept" but the idea of making a fast game while picking things up every 2 seconds is stupid. Hayashida, who is a now more a supervisor (and probably a little short on ideas after years and years of crunch), must help with other projects, and ask Yasuhara to help with the "Mario Killer"
    - They finally come up with the "round concept" with a hedgehog, proto eggman, and some other character
    - This version of the hedgehog is this one :
    - They ask SOA for advice, they pick the hedgehog because it's the "least terrible" (from al nielsen own words) but they think it's going to bomb. They begin to work on some other character (with some other team) to make their own "Mario Killer" for the american market. Katz really, really hates the design.
    - Ohshima finishes the design by incorporating more of his "rabbit" (or more mickey/felix), Sonic is born
    - Development is going well, they have a "proof of concept" ready for the Toys Expo. They still dont have a finalized outline of the game. There is still Madonna in it and no eggman (or bee eggman if you want).
    - At some point (maybe with some help from Hayashida ?) they finalize the story with the two pilots, the sonic jacket, the widow who write the story/her daughter who meets a real sonic (the evolution of madonna, i guess), but also eggman, the chaos emerald, the rock band, etc. (the story that the wife is writing) and the actual plans for the game design
    - They participate to an internal competition for a mascot, and people like it. Probably after that, SOJ think they may have something great, and launch a big promotional effort, with Dreams come True composing, and some manga... With a Sonic with fangs... the rockband... and bunny girls... and story about dead pilots...
    - At the same time, SOA is entering RED ALERT TERRITORY. The Genesis is not selling like they wanted, and they have next to zero interest in this weird Mario Killer. STI that should make games for the american market is still nowhere, because all the japanese staff that should have come months before is stuck in japan.
    - At this point Katz is out and Kalinske is in, and tries to salvage the situation like it's a Mattel toyline. So basically, he wants to completely remake the storyline surrounding Sonic, to make it more "normal" for the american audience and create a comic to sell the toy (the game). The infamous Sonic Bible gets made but nobody really cares. He also asks Greg Martin to redraw Sonic. Ohshima is not pleased with the change in artstyle. Madeline Schroeder comes to convince them to drop their version of the character for continuity in the brand, and to drop all the "weird stuff". They say no and ask them to have their own "western sonic"
    - In the end, the game is rushed to market (like every Sega game, or even game, at the time) and they're "forced" to cut all the weird stuff that had nothing to do with the game in itself. Sonic with fangs disappears because it was just a promotional thing nobody cared about and not done by Ohshima. SOA thinks they won the battle.
    - The game is finished. Yasuhara & Naka quits Sonic Team to go to STI
    - But SOA still think they have a big, big dud coming. Its only in 91, like the summer CES of 91 (and the story of al nielsen putting sonic next to mario world) that they kinda think its going to do ok. But not be a real Mario Killer. They probably think that now that STI has the japanese talent inhouse, they're gonna make some other IP tailored for the american market with this kind of technology (i'm even wondering if their version of the "Mario Killer" wasn't Kid Chameleon, before that)
    - Over the summer, the game is a complet success and they kickly ask for a Sonic 2

    So, do you think it could be accurate ? I'm trying my best not to take side in a SOJ vs SOA battle, and to respect everyone side of the story. It seems to me like the only chronology where my brain doesn't really hurt. I never heard before about the Hayashida story, so I'm waiting for my copy of the Genesis Collected Works to see if there is more in there. I heard that Ohshima alors talks in the untold history of japanese game developer vol3 (where he confirms MJ involvement with Sonic 3), does anyone knows if he talks about something else ?

    I'm also thinking about contacting Yasuhara, he seems to be the most honest about the whole situation...

    Thanks a lot for reading and don't hesitate to correct me !
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  2. Unlimited Trees

    Unlimited Trees

    Gongaga Gaming Member
    UNITRES, Project Time, etc.
    me :)
  3. Azookara


    yup Member
    This is either the most harebrained unraveling I've ever seen, or a brilliant dive into a forbidden truth.

    I wish my brain had the power and knowledge to know which one I'm taking in, but I send you posi vibes on your journey to see this through regardless. What a fascinating post.
  4. Gryson


    Have to be brief now, but Kalinske's accounts should be approached with extreme skepticism. It is indisputable that he was not at Sega by the time the character design was finished, yet in Collected Works he tries to take credit for the red shoes, among other things. He also usually speaks in the 1st person plural ("we did such and such") so my guess is that he's just passing along stories that he heard after he arrived at Sega but didn't personally witness or take part in.
  5. Magelan


    I think that the whole SOA account as we know it is very doubtful. It was first written in Console Wars (I think ?) and we know today that 99% of the book is bullshit just to get a movie deal. In all interview of Kalinske, Nilsen, Schroeder that came after they repeat the exact same story from the book without changing a word, or even adding something to it. I heard an interview of Kalinske where the guy basically asks if sending Madeline Schroeder to Japan (a traditional, conservative, masculine society) was the smartest idea, and you can just hear the wheel spinning when Kalinske answers.

    There is also the Gametap documentary where Schroeder speaks but Naka and Toyoda just confirm that they redid the illustrations for Sonic to "americanize" it, not defang him or give him red shoes.

    The thing that seems weird to me is the fact that Al Nilsen and Schroeder were at Sega before Kalinske and, according to Cerny, spent basically 6 month with a gun to their heads hoping the whole thing disappears, not even answering SOJ except to make some kind of "How to never make something like this again", and when Kalinske appears, it's all cool and we just need some modifications and I'm really the Mother of Sonic.

    I think Kalinske had a positive effect in the long run (in the long interview that I posted, Naka and Ohshima talk about the "Tails" naming story, and how basically Kalinske was at the table when they named Knuckles) but in a very "toyline" way (I don't remember if he appears in "Toys that made us" on Netflix, but it's very interesting to see the mindset at the time), and the whole "changes" they speak about is about the merchandise, not the actual game, and SOJ basically wasn't happy but didn't care about it enough to really veto it, and after the success of Sonic 1 in the US, the whole "cut japanese backtstory" never came back (until Sonic 2006, I guess).

    What MAY (to make everyone happy) have happened is that between this


    and the final version, Nilsen/Schroeder said "alright, this one is the least terrible but it's still too agressive" and Ohshima dialed down the spikes and everything, if he didn't already do it.
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  6. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    It sounds to me like some people are twisting history in their favor. Schroeder claims that she never doubted Sonic and she saw herself as his mother, yet going by Cerny's account, Katz, Schroeder and Nielsen hated him (at least initially) and wanted to bury him. And then there's the shoes thing.

    I think the most likely scenarios are either that Nielsen and Schroeder were just going along with the opinion of whoever was the current SoA president (first Katz and then Kalinske), or that they genuinely hated the character, but then Kalinske came and was all for it, so Nielsen and Schroeder reluctantly went along with it, with Schroeder suggesting changes to make Sonic less awful. Then Sonic turned out to be a huge success, prompting Schroeder and Kalinske to embellish history, with the former proclaiming that she always believed in Sonic, and the latter adding "red shoes" to his list of contributions.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
  7. Powpuck


    A few notes:

    -I doubt it was Greg Martin who "Americanized" Sonic, but rather Greg Wray.
    -Ohshima has said somewhere (gametap retrospective, I think) that Sonic's shoe colors were inspired by Santa Clause, so naturally the red came from there and not anywhere else. (Extreme tangential note, but Ohshima seems to have a lifelong fascination with Santa Claus in general. Sonic was even intended at one point to have been born on Christmas Island; indeed Sonic wearing hand-me-downs from a man who could deliver all the world's presents in a single night strikes me as likely would-be origin for his incredible speed.)
  8. Pengi


    Would anyone be able to put links (or book references) to all these “Sonic origin” interviews in one place?

    Having it all side by side would be a good way of keeping track of who is contradicting who.
  9. Gryson


    My take in regards to the SOA situation is this:

    Sometime by early '90, Katz and Schroeder had received this concept art:



    They didn't like it because Sonic looked too spiky or aggressive. Schroeder goes to Japan and works with Ohshima in "softening" the character design.

    The result is something like this:


    This represents the final design of Sonic. This must be before June 1990, because that artwork serves as the basis for Sonic's first public appearance at the 1990 Tokyo Toy Show with the scaling demo:

    Of course, Schroeder probably told them to ditch Madonna. As Naka says, Madonna was never meant to be in the game anyway. But Schroeder probably thought she was the reason Madonna was dropped.

    The Sonic model was also created sometime before then (and served as the model for the title screen of the alpha):


    We know that Schroeder did have SOME input in Sonic, because Ohshima (IIRC) said he didn't really think the changes were necessary.

    All of this talk that has come about more recently about a "goth" Sonic, Sonic with fangs, and what not, is almost certainly exaggeration and distorted second-hand info.

    Kalinske, who was not around until almost a year after all of this, probably heard that Sonic's early design was rough, and he embellished the whole goth, fang thing based on the stories he heard.
  10. kazblox


    Diassemblies and decompilations.
    By the way, the "American" Sonic design can be dated back to at least December 1990 by approximation; the final American box art shows up in one of SEGA's Winter 1991 CES banners, as Black Squirrel pointed out in a different thread.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
  11. ICEknight


    Researcher Researcher
    The team(s) created those games around the game mechanics and ideas (including maps!) that he came up with, so I'd say he could be seen as their director of sorts, even if the credits give a different name to his job.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
  12. Magelan


    I would like to believe that, but Schroeder (and even Nilsen, in another interview) said herself that she defanged him.


    Plus, we know that between "The Hedgehog" and "Sonic" there is less that 2 months (development began in April, "Sonic" with Madonna existed before June, as you said)
    We also know, thanks to Cerny, that SOA didn't really care about the design until Kalinske was here (so roughly October / November)

    If you really listen carefully to Schroeder, Naka, and Toyoda (without looking at what the video shows with "The Hedgehog" turning into "Sonic"), the whole feud between SOJ and SOA began with the first american illustration of Sonic, with "changes" ordered by Kalinske, and Schroeder going to Japan during that time to explain why.

    For reference, the two Sonic side by side.


    Now listen to Schroeder and Toyoda here (and also Ohshima at the beginning) :


    She says that she was asked to redesign the look and backstory of Sonic for the merchandising and the comic. Toyoda says SOA made him "edgier" and more "comical", but, like Schroeder also says, "softened him" which seems to be the opposite of making him edgier, but whatever. Maybe they mean making him more relatable or something. Notice that Ohshima says that people thought at first that Sonic was a character for little kids.

    To me it seems clear that :
    1) The defanging thing, killing Madonna and the band refers to the manga (the only media we saw him with fangs) and the backstory, which explains why she takes credit for it (even if we know that it was more a time thing than anything), because she is the one who wrote the Sonic Bible and basically created the Sonic comic book
    2) The actual "redesign" (basically making him edgier) was made AFTER the japanese final design of the character, just to appeal more to US teenagers. They just thought the original design was "kid like", and that was Nintendo market. Their market research showed them that teenagers were an untapped market, so they altered Sonic design for that reason.

    I really think that nobody is lying, just being reaaaaally vague about what they are really talking about.

    In any case, like another poster suggested, I can create a list of sources if it makes things clearer. Everyone will be able to understand my pain, trying to find out the truth about a video game character from 25 years ago


    Notice how in the official documentary made by Sega (second video I think) nobody even talks about Yasuhara. Probably because Naka is still mad at him.

    This whole thing is just insane.
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  13. Linkabel


    There's two eras of Sonic that are really frustrating for me because of all the missing/conflicting information we have.

    Those two eras are the start of Sonic-1994 and the development of Sonic Adventure.

    In my opinion we're just missing a lot more content. Perhaps there are some concepts of a more "rough" Sonic with fangs locked up somewhere in SoJ or SoA. It is possible since Oshima has drawn him with fangs before (and Nights as well), the manga did have that as well, and he even got some fangs in his SA model.

    And the reason why I think this is because there's a lot of stuff that they don't bothered to mention for whatever reason.

    For example, when talking about the redesign of Sonic, ST mentioned how they needed to redesign the cast to start a new era, the transition to 3D required some changes, and that Yuji Uekawa was chosen for that task. But one key figure that got left out was Satoshi Okano, and how his work in Sega Saturn Magazine kickstarted the start for a new design.

    Then there's characters like Amy and Charmy that seemed to have been made first for other material like the Shogakuka Sonic manga but were promoted to the games. But again, this never gets mentioned when talking about their creation.

    Going back to the Sonic 1 situation, perhaps there's a lot of factors in play. People romanticizing their roles, people not remembering stuff, miscommunication, material we've never seen, legal issues, and stuff that they don't think it's important to mention.
  14. Gryson


    I've just always felt like that Japanese comic is a red herring. First, the character design was well established at that time (a few months before release). It's hard to believe that Schroeder would obsess over the teeth as they are portrayed in that comic so much. I mean, it was a tie-in comic released with a magazine in Japan not drawn by any member of the team. I wouldn't be surprised if Schroeder never even saw the comic. Remember, the American cover art for Sonic was already well done at that point.

    SOA had complete independence when it came to marketing games. They could create whatever backstory they wanted for Sonic without the need to get it approved and they could and did release their own comics and merchandise.

    It's hard to imagine a situation like this a few months before release:

    Schroeder: Guys, we've got to remove the fangs from Sonic.
    Sonic Team: What fangs?
    Schroeder: The fangs in this comic!!
    Sonic Team: Who drew that? That Sonic looks way off.
    Schroeder: Why would you give him fangs!? And we've got to remove his girlfriend too.
    Sonic Team: Girlfriend? She hasn't been shown in anything for over a year. Long gone. Why are you talking about that now?

    Anyway, forgive me for being a bit silly, but I just don't think that the Sonic Story Comic is worth considering.

    Then how else can the "fangs" comment be interpreted? She could mean it figuratively (remove fangs = soften), or she could be mis-remembering what the actual problems were (too much aggression and too many spines). We've had SO much early Sonic concept art released but nothing that indicates anything like fangs. Not everything that everybody says in an interview 20 years after the fact is going to be accurate. I think we need to be a bit more open to the possibility that without corroborating evidence, the fangs thing might not be what it seems.

    So, there might be two issues interacting here. First, yes, SOA certainly changed the character/background of Sonic, but that was common practice back then and within their rights. Schroeder undoubtedly had a hand in revising the character for American merchandising.

    Second, I think that Schroeder likely did take part in early revisions of Sonic. I can't see any other way to interpret her comments about removing Madonna, who was (IIRC) only shown in a few concept art pieces from early '90. We know that SOA was involved in the process early on when Katz was there. It's not surprising that they would make their voices heard concerning the early design. In regards to that Cerny interview: I think you might be reading too much into it. He reports that someone at SOA was very negative about the early Sonic concept art, but doesn't say who (likely Katz). That doesn't rule out the possibility that Schroeder went to Japan to work on it then.
  15. Magelan


    The "manga sonic" was also used for paper ads in Japan. Maybe it was a big deal.


    I just think they wanted to kill the japanese / manga design / lore to avoid having multiple design of the characters, and possibly having to make different kind of toys / comics / merchandising in general for different country and ultimately killing the (possible) brand.

    Remember that Kalinske came from Mattel and his whole vision is really about building a world-known toyline at this point.

    For Madonna, we don't actually know when or why she was cut. Or even when active development began. We know that the rockband, for instance, was still in the lore near the end of development, and even appeared in game design documents (with final design looking sonic, so post june 90).
    Maybe she was considered for whatever tie-in lore or cutscene until late in the game. Remember than in June of 90, the design of Sonic may be final, but the game concept is far from being finalized. Sonic couldn't turn into a ball at this point, and Eggman was still not here.

    To support the Cerny interview, Kalinske talks about Katz in the Collected Works, I think, still waiting on the book, and says that he really, really hated the design and wanted nothing to do with it. I deduced that Schroeder went to Japan around when the "american sonic" was finalized, so around November/December, based on the above interview where it says that she was instructed by Kalinske to make the changes and go to Japan to explain them. Maybe she went there earlier (during Katz presidency) and even voiced concerns then, but based on some other interviews with Nilsen and co, I think it's really Kalinske arrival that made a big difference. And it would be around the time when they were finalizing the concept, I think, so it's possible that Madonna was still on the table at this point (and the band definitely was).

    I'm really not trying to minimize Schroeder influence, but I think she may be talking about a different plane of participation (ie marketing and merchandising, basically her job) rather than having a real weight on the actual game content. Like if we take the rock band, they were cut from the actual game for whatever reason (probably because it made the game too big), but they still appear in the manga, and they were going to be in the sound test until the last moment. But they were cut from the official lore of the game, probably because yes, SOA took control of the "Extended Universe" of Sonic before the release.

    (About the fangs, we have 3 people (maybe 4, i don't recall if toyoda talks about them) confirming the fangs as physically there, I think Nilsen called Schroeder the dentist of sonic and not the mother, so I would like to think it may be bad memory on their part but I highly doubt it)
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  16. Endgame


    Formerly The Growler Member
    What I'd like to know is where the Sonic hanging ornament in Rad Mobile fits into all of this - which appeared before Sonic 1 came out?

    I guess it was all settled before Sonic's official debut release?

  17. Pengi


    Sonic’s first appearance in a video game and they got his legs the wrong colour.
  18. Magelan


    From Naka himself :

    At that time, Sega also happened to be taking submissions for a new corporate mascot character. I submitted Sonic. Although Sonic was still in development, Yu Suzuki included the Sonic character in his 32-bit arcade game Rad Mobile, as a little decoration hanging from the rearview mirror. I loved that, and did the same thing with my own car for awhile.

    I guess Suzuki saw the character when he was submitted, liked it, and put him in to show support.
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  19. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    this is what KLF is about Wiki Sysop
    Any referenceable facts need to be on the Sonic Retro wiki.

    As in, if the wiki doesn't have all the knowledge, it needs updating so that it has all the knowledge.
  20. Gestalt


    Sphinx in Chains Member
    2h documentary about the history of Sonic the Hedgehog, R U up 2 IT?

    When someone like Kotaro Hayashida is trying to take credit for the “initial concept”, he could also be referring to his experience making mascot platformers if that makes any sense. Alex Kidd was said to be SEGA’s first mascot after all.

    The Americanization of Sonic was necessary not because of “terrible” design, but because SOA thought that he wouldn’t have stood a chance on the American market. The “other” goal they’ve set for themselves. Designers often struggle to strike the right balance between conveying a sense of credibility and marketability. As for Madonna, don’t ask why she was scrapped, ask why she was created in the first place. How I understand it, SOJ worked out the idea and SOA applied the finishing touch.