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Should the Sonic remake train keep running and how?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by E-122-Psi, Jul 27, 2022.

  1. Pengi

    Pengi

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    If the Mania team can make the rubber band fun, then they can keep the rubber band.

    The game could be called Chaotix Mania, Knuckles Mania or Sonic Chaotix if need be. The whole point of a Chaotix remake would be to fix the gameplay and level design, because that's what didn't work in the original. It wouldn't be porting a bad game, it would be upcycling a bad game into a good game.

    Sonic Team have historically held Chaotix in a much lower regard than Sonic 1-3K and CD, and Sonic Mania proved that remixing old Sonic levels is a viable way to create a new game.
     
  2. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    As mentioned before, I think the only way SEGA would accept such drastic changes to Chaotix were if it actually WERE in the form of an optional Encore style mode, with the original game still available in some form.

    Otherwise, yeah, they may as well make a new game inspired by Chaotix.
     
  3. Doafhat

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    I've always had a soft spot for Chaotix (I'll tell on myself and admit I had a 32X and I got it primarily to play Chaotix), but I don't think it's worth the effort to do a remake.

    There are similarities between Sonic CD and Chaotix where they're both these classic-era curiosities that exist off the beaten path from the main series at the time. But while the quality of life improvements in the 2011 CD remaster elevated a good game to really good or even great, I think Chaotix would only be bumped up to the realm of "Yeah, I guess it's fine."

    Tweaks to the game mechanics don't really do anything to improve the repetitive level design or the uninteresting badniks and bosses, which I think are bigger negatives against the game than the rubber band gimmick. And if you're addressing those issues and adding in single player modes, you're pretty much making a new game at that point.

    And ultimately, even if Sega made the perfect idealized Chaotix As You Truly Imagined It, is there really a strong enough demand to get a return on that investment? I kind of think that would be like if Disney announced their next big Star Wars project was making Special Edition versions of the made-for-TV Ewok movies with new 4K special effects and everything — sure, there's room for improvement, but there are probably much more effective projects that can utilize the time and resources that would be required.
     
  4. Azookara

    Azookara

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    I made a Chaotix Remake pitch a year or two ago that I'd like to see come to fruition someday, if with a few tweaks. (this is a plug) (please take a look)

    As for expecting any more remakes from Sonic Team, I kinda do. But I also don't really want them that bad? It seems like a no brainer to port SA1 and 2 to modern consoles in widescreen, and don't get me wrong it should be done since those games are so important to Sonic's identity. But modern Sonic Team is allergic to making good ports, if Origins and Cultimate are anything to go by, so I don't trust them at all on delivering.
     
  5. Pengi

    Pengi

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    This is a poor analogy.

    Your Star Wars example involves taking a bad film and adding in expensive special effects. The end result would be an expensive bad film.

    "Chaotix Mania" would involve a small team of indie devs (with a proven track record for making good Sonic games) creating a new 2D Sonic game, with new maps, in an existing engine (Retro Engine) with recycled graphics and music.

    It would be a low budget project. There is demand for a successor of some kind to Sonic Mania. Sega have been very thrifty with Sonic games recently, heavily reusing and repurposing assets (Mania, Forces, Team Sonic Racing, Frontiers). Chaotix Mania would fit that budget-conscious philosophy, but without giving us Green Hill and Chemical Plant again.
     
  6. MontiP

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    First of all, your Chaotix Remake pitch is really freaking cool. Second of all, just wanted to correct that Cultimate was handled by Blind Squirrel Games and not Sonic Team.

    Ah, screw it. Might as well throw my two cents here:

    When it comes to potential Adventure remakes, it should be noted that, a while back, Izuka himself has expressed interest in remaking the first game, partly to fix many of its flaws; though from what I understood, remaking said game and even others were not a high priority for the development team nowadays.

    Judging by his comments, as well as how Sonic Team seems to really be pushing this "new direction" with Frontiers, if they were to actually remake Adventure 1, I don't expect them to make a straightforward remake; rather (and what I'd love to see), they would instead completely reimagine the game in Frontiers' framework. For me, it would neatly tie the entire legacy of 3D Sonic full circle (classic game inspires the creation of a modern one; said game gets reimagined with the conventions learned from the new one).

    And heck, why stop at Adventure 1, throw Adventure 2 in there, boom. Sonic Adventure 1+2. While, in hindsight, Adventure 2 is structured as back-to-back cyberspace stages, they could take the risk and restructure the game by integrating the open zone -> cyberspace format, and even attempt to tie both stories together in one big myth arc.

    Putting the Adventure games aside, I was thinking about this for a while, and as absurd as it sounds, the Frontiers' framework would fit really well with Shadow the Hedgehog; I believe a remake could benefit with the more open level layouts and the overhauled combat system.

    As a side note, a long time ago, I once conceptualized in my head a complete remake of the classic Genesis trilogy in full 2.5D, ala Generations. The games would be tied together in one coherent story, that also contains call-forwards to future games... which Origins more or less eventually did do, just without the call-forwards. Or the 2.5D.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
  7. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    But fixing the rubberband would be fairly simple. No need to remove it. Just make it so that in singleplayer, the second character can't lose rings and behaves as if he were weightless compared to the player character. He can't drag you or slow you down (unless you're using the Hold feature) but you can still drag him around. I believe that would make him no more bothersome than AI Tails in the traditional 2d games.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
  8. E-122-Psi

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    The tether physics aren't awful, they're just not well telegraphed so the player can get the hang of them, much like the barrel until Origins.



    There's some clever tricks to master here, but the thing is nothing about the gameplay or levels really signals you to do such, making it all feel pretty unintuitive, I don't think even the tutorial goes through a lot of it. Even some sound effects likely would have helped.

    Granted I do think it is maybe exacerbated by how damn heavy most of the characters are in Chaotix, they often drop like a rock, giving you less time to make precise moves and combos.
     
  9. XCubed

    XCubed

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  10. Blue Spikeball

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    I remember first seeing the trick at 13:58 in one of the in-game demos and going "Whoa, I didn't know you could do that!"

    It's kind of funny. In a way the rubberband mechanic makes Chaotix the predecessor to SA2 and the boost games, with gameplay that is hard to get the hang of at first but allows you to pull off awesome tricks the more you master it.

    I think that 15:43 encapsulates why I actually kind of enjoyed Chaotix and found its mechanics fun to mess around with. I didn't just try to play it like a standard Sonic game and run to the goal while struggling against the rubberband mechanic; I actually made use of the physics and the rubberband to help me navigate the levels. It made the gameplay less straightforward and more chaotic (it's even referenced by the title!), but in a fun and addictive way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2022
  11. Taylor

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    Maybe it's a lack of imagination on my part but I'm not sure if you could really design good levels around the tether gimmick. I feel it's just too precise. It's fun to mess around with, but can you design challenges around it? I'm not sure
    But hey, I won't object to someone trying it :V
     
  12. Azookara

    Azookara

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    I think the tether makes the most sense in a co-op mode, where two players are equally pulling their weight (literally) and have to figure out how to navigate together.

    Other than that, it feels too complicated for it's own good to me to try to constantly swing around two characters with their own seperate physics. Are there moments of brilliance shining through occasionally? Maybe. But trying to design levels for it forces the stages to be really tall, really wide, and really winding; with little variance in hazards or enemies because anything more intense would be too frustrating.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2022
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  13. doc eggfan

    doc eggfan

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    I'd like to see a back to basics re-imagining of Sonic 1, but recreated in a modern cartoony style that is more faithful to the original bizarre and whimsical concept art. Sort of like Cuphead, I suppose, but not quite - I'm sure there is a better example but I can't think of one.
    Gameplay wise, I'd like to strip it right back to basics - no spin dash, no homing attacks, no boost. I'd like to see slower paced levels, rather than "hold right to win" and introduce sections that are like momentum based puzzles, where it takes a little bit of thought to figure out how to roll and jump and build enough speed to clear an obstacle. Speed is not an entitlement, but something that can be cultivated through patience and experience. Redo Labyrinth zone with the snorkel goggles and chambers of air. I'd also mix in the levels from the 8-bit Sonic 1 as well.
    I'd like to see animated interactions between a fanged sonic and a pajama clad eggman, like a strange fever dream in the style of Tom and Jerry or Roadrunner and Wile e. Coyote. I'd like to see the characters from Sonic's band and Madonna fully realised.
    I'm imagining more of an experimental art project than a commercially successful product. I'd call it "Sonic Zero"
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2022
  14. Dark Sonic

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    Here are my overall thoughts on remakes:
    • I think a few games deserve a Crash N. Sane Trilogy esq remake - SA1, SA2, and maybe Heroes. The ports as they exist now are trash, and it's no longer 2010, it's not acceptable to just dump out some dreamcast games, even if Nintendo did it with Mario 64 and Sunshine in the 3D All Stars Collection (but at least Sunshine had the excuse of being locked away for 15 or so years)
    • Unleashed deserves a "complete" version that includes all DLC and incorporates those stages into the hub and Generations could stand for a refined updated if done with care (and maybe add a new "era," probably Lost World, Mania, and Forces).
    • The Advance series + Battle and Pinball Party deserve a collection, but something tells me THQ licensing hell will keep those locked away forever.
    • Or if not the Advances (or in addition to), maybe the Rushes and the Rivals series could be bundled in a collection.
    • Chaotix should see the light of day again, it'd be particularly nice if it was an Evening Star or Headcannon effort, but at that point why not just make a new game?
    • Some deserve spiritual successors but not direct remakes (examples: Sonic R, Sonic Riders)
    • Game gear games should've just been dumped into Origins as emulated bonuses for easy accessibility, along with Spinball and 3D Blast (I mean they're islands for those two games so....). Couldn't care less if Mean Bean Machine was included (its not a Sonic game I'm almost any sense, it's Puyo puyo. It can be it's own thing)
    • The rest (Storybook series, 06, any of the Riders games unless heavily retooled, Shadow, Shuffle, Chronicles)? Forget em. I don't think they deserve remakes and save for Riders, I don't even think deserve revisits concept wise. I do think they should give a Sonic RPG a go again but ngl that's kinda what Frontiers looks like, just a more action oriented one instead of turn based.
     
  15. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    Going on the same legacy format as Mario Kart and Crash Team Racing have with a mix of old and new material could actually be a good idea. I admit it would likely be more compatible with Riders since it actually was a series with several titles to play off of. I kinda prefer R, though admit the Saturn graphics are half the novelty there. Maybe that would warrant more a nostalgia game like Mania with the old tracks in there.

    I do wonder if there's potential in an arcade collection like SEGA Sonic, Fighters and maybe even a release of SEGASonic Bros. Granted I feel like that would likely work better in a similar vien as Gems Collection and more a small collection of ports than needing polished up remakes. I think the XBox release of Fighters does as much as they can with it so just use that one, while I think many would likely be interested in just playing the other two as they were given how rare they are.
     
  16. Dark Sonic

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    Ah that's right Fighters and SegaSonic Arcade. Those both deserve to see the light of day, and I know Fighters is still somewhat accessible. SegaSonic though is trickier.

    Ask Travellers Tales guy to rebuild said game in the 3D Blast engine :eng101:
     
  17. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    The Storybook games are good and you should be ASHAMED for suggesting otherwise (lol just kidding)
     
  18. E-122-Psi

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    Really a lot of these are games we just wanna have rereleased in ANY capacity. I think many would appreciate a polished version of Chaotix or SEGA Sonic but just as many just want to be able to play the damn games AT ALL, if anything making something closer to showcasing the original experience would be more appreciated in that regard.

    I agree with Dark Sonic in this regard, like just having an unlockable mini-museum in Origins of ROMs of some of the spin offs would have been a cool idea. Or even just making another Gems Collection type compliation with some of the rarer titles, if a more thorough catelogue this time round.
     
  19. I agree with the idea of no more remakes. I’d love however to see more direct ports, like bringing chaotix and advance series to modern consoles. Heroes gets a lot of talk in the casual side of the fan base. An 8 bit collection would be cool. I personally want headcannon to have a dual development with sega. Headcannon works on the 2d games and sonic team works on the big budget games, kinda like dimps was for a while.
     
  20. Zycor

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    If we could assure the end product would be quality, and not just haphazardly thrown together... and because no one asked me, here's my thoughts:

    Knuckles Chaotix: I agree, could use a complete remake/reimagining. Get rid of the Combi rings, get rid of Heavy and Bomb or rework them to be fun to play and not "haha, bad luck" In fact, get rid of the whole random partner thing. Give all the characters unique abilities that you can play like Knuckles and Mighty and do the up and jump trick from the 16 bit remakes to perform your buddy's action or use some of the other buttons that are typically on a controller nowadays for different actions. The only real issue is stage layouts would need to provide unique paths, and Charmy would have to be nerfed. I haven't gotten the chance to play Mighty in Mania yet. The thing about most of the characters in Chaotix is they all have either a vertical move, or a redundant move, see Vector's climbing, and to a lesser extent, Espio being able to cling onto walls. If there were fewer acts, and layouts that suited a bit of a more cut down cast (I'd be cool with characters having more similar movesets if they don't want to cut all the move redundancies out, I think 5 unique paths for each playable character would be a bit much considering how similarly most of them play) I think there's a lot of potential for a complete remake/reimagining of Chaotix.

    Sonic Adventure/2: I'd have to say I agree that SADX, and to a lesser extent, SA2B have both aged poorly... but the enhancements fans have done for SADX and SA2 don't make me think the games have aged poorly. I used to think Sonic Adventure was one of the worst games ever before I played the more faithful fixes by SonicFreak94 and others that fixed a bunch of issues that were never present in the original Dreamcast release, as well as restoring the Dreamcast Lighting and textures. I had a blast replaying it with those enhancements, but SEGA should have never done Sonic Adventure dirty. SA2 was less butchered in its porting, with mostly the cutscenes suffering, but that fix is also available by fans. Frankly, Sonic Team just did poor quality ports that, while they get the job done, lack polish, especially SADX.

    Advance: I'd love to see some remakes like the Taxman/Stealth remakes, but frankly all of the games have a few rough edges. Sonic Advance 2 and 3 especially. Some of the layouts make me question a lot. Sonic Advance 2 effectively needs completely redesigned layouts if you ask me. Also a reworked special stage system. All of the games have flaws, I'd say Sonic Advance and 3 both could use completely redone Special Stages using actual 3D assets. 2 is the only one I've collected all the emeralds in legitimately, ironically. I think that could also benefit from 3D assets in the special stages.

    3D Blast: It's not a bad game, it's a bad Sonic game. Flicky, but with Sonic, and Isometric was never going to be an easy sell. I don't know that this one really benefits from widescreen or anything. I think there's a reason a good amount of the music ended up being reworked and reused in Sonic Adventure.

    R: A more polished remake with controls that better suit Sonic and friends would be nice. I don't know how to properly handle a remake of R, I don't have a ton of experience with it. I know it's never been a game people thought handled well regardless of the platform and running it on PC was never easy.

    SMS games: Again, seeing these get the Taxman/Stealth treatment would be neat, but I think they'd be a hard sell again. Most of these games have been unlockables in other Sonic games, and they're usually the Game Gear versions. If there were remakes I'd be fine with them getting graphical overhauls but allowing you to toggle the original art. Probably too much work though, even just for Sonic 1, 2, Chaos, and Triple Trouble (is anyone a fan of the 3D prerendered sprites Game Gear game?). The Game Gear/Master System's limitations and the more simplistic designs of these games due to those limitations make me think remakes would effectively need to be all bundled up into a single release.

    Heroes: I don't particularly like this game because of the amount of times they want you to play through minimally changed levels. Your reward for finishing everything with A Ranks? Another hard mode, and I don't know if it actually saves your progress. They could have just had Team Sonic's levels, Team Chaotix's missions as a side mode, and Hard Mode. Would have been more than enough in my opinion. I know Sonic games in general tend to be a difficult sell because people don't typically want to replay games and trying to make a Sonic game where you can breeze through every level in less than 5 minutes and have like 7 zones with 2 acts each, most people aren't going to want to pay that much for a game like that, which they are unlikely to play more than once. I like replayability, but I don't particularly care for how Sonic Heroes goes about it. Team Rose and Team Dark are basically just Team Sonic's stages but with stuff cut out/added in... it's a bit complicated. I've never been a huge fan of Sonic Heroes even if you disregard Team Rose/Dark/Chaotix. Also, give a character shut up toggle.

    Shadow: Yeah, not going to be an easy sell either. Shadow is a game that could certainly use some improvements... and well, it suffers from a lot of extra bloat because you need to play through the same levels over and over again completing the same objectives over and over again... I don't mind the missions idea, I just think (like most people) that the campaign suffers from having to replay so many levels just to get all the endings so you can play an underwhelming boss fight. This game would also benefit from a character shut up toggle.

    Anything later than these games I'd just prefer having ports available with enhancements, but seeing how Colors ended up... I don't know that I trust Sonic Team.

    Frankly, I'm more of an advocate of having games available on more platforms. So I wouldn't necessarily be against any particular number of remakes/ports... but I don't think SEGA/Sonic Team put much passion into their projects.