Sega of America originally wanted to use its own music for Sonic 2

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Gryson, Mar 8, 2021.

  1. Yash

    Yash

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    Yeah, if I'm ever playing the Taxman version, 3 times out of 4 I'll put on the Japanese soundtrack. Adore the US soundtrack for what it is but it doesn't fit the game nearly as well.
     
  2. Overlord

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    Ironic then that the Bad Future track for this zone is so far off model that it sounds like porngroove. =P
     
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  3. Xiao Hayes

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    So much hate in a lot of people words... Hate SoA for what they did but don't thrash the music or the composer. If you don't give the guy enough time and clues to do proper work, he can't, but he tried. I can't remember if it was Nilsen's or someone else's work, but I'd agree it could fit Ecco the Dolphin better sometimes, which CD version was his work too.

    Ecco is another case where soundtrack shifted to a more ambient one in CD, totally different from its MD counterpart, and a lot of people complained about the different feel of it. I'm just thankful I can play some games with two different soundtracks thanks to Sega, I don't know how many games really have done this but all the ones I know are Sega's.
     
  4. Ted618

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    If anyone wants to enjoy SCD at its best though (as in trying to get a feel for its strong, cohesive artistic direction that was always intended and actually came through in most parts of the world besides the States), then the American soundtrack is basically irrelevant and doesn't even need to be bothered with in-game if it's possible

    It's fair enough giving some of its alternative tracks a listen to see what they're about, and obviously even more fair listening to or choosing the US OST in-game if you think you prefer it, but it doesn't change the fact that what CD's trying to achieve feel-wise will be partly lost as a result, and that's generally agreed upon as one of the biggest points in its favour.
     
  5. The Other RaFaél

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    D'oh! Never thought of it that way before, I always found the U.S. Bad Future mix to be "eerily relaxing" (for want of a better way to put it). Alas, I reckon it's gonna take some time before I can once again hear it without picturing......things. lol X.x
     
  6. XCubed

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    I could have sworn some one mixed this into porn, maybe 15+ years ago now :V

    I do have to give my respect to Tidal Tempest. In addition to Palmtree Panic Present, all TT US tracks actually fit the level. Even the futures are distinguishable. There’s no variation of a single theme, but the instrumentation, notably the background singers, is consistent.
     
  7. Overlord

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    I'm sure I have absolutely no idea who you're talking about. ;)
     
  8. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    I mean, it can't have been that prevalent or remembered, otherwise we'd have hundreds of faux-cheeky youtube commenters thinking they're really clever for saying "haha I know this song but not from the game haha can you guess what it is haha". Heaven forbid we just like the 3D World OST.

    Like seriously, you either admit to jerking off or you don't, trying to play cute with this half-measure bullshit is just annoying.
     
  9. Xiao Hayes

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    I'm the one who really doesn't know what you're talking about, and I'd like to stay that way.

    Also, I'm not saying the original soundtrack doesn't win the fight in-game, but I can play the game with that soundtrack without suffering that much. I mean, no one's rebutting actual official words, it's just that I find some reactions here overly dramatic.
     
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  10. Laura

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    I did find the posts about the composer's thoughts on making the soundtrack interesting, but I think the posts about how Sonic CD was created with the JP soundtrack in mind for its artistic vision (a very cliché and shallow term) and that the US soundtrack therefore compromises the game are very unhelpful.

    In the same terms, Sonic 3 has lost its artistic vision because we did not get the prototype tracks and got the MJ Team songs instead. Or wait, we don't know if we were supposed to get the MJ Team tacks originally or not! We have no idea how to appreciate the true artistic vision of Sonic 3! Maybe the game we've enjoyed for decades is a bastardisation and the PC soundtrack, which was mocked until recently, is closer to the artistic vision. Just sucks we will never truly understand how to enjoy Sonic 3!

    And if that's maybe a bit too out there, then we should also start dissuading people from using speedrun strategies, because they similarly go against the artistic vision of the game designer.

    You can see why this argument gets silly :V

    I prefer the JP soundtrack and find it more melodically cohesive than the US one. But I think defending it as the 'true' soundtrack is pretty daft, especially when music preference is so subjective.
     
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  11. Blue Spikeball

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    The point is that the SCD devs went out of their way to produce music that fit their vision, and then SoA changed it behind their backs. There is a difference between the original creators altering something while they're developing it, and the marketing changing it without their input or permission in an attempt at making more appealing for a certain market.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
  12. Laura

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    This is not at all unusual and is probably the case for many Sonic games. We just don't know in specific detail how the games were developed. The OST of Sonic 3 very well could have been changed by SEGA execs. The title screen track of Sonic Spinball in this perspective is also a bastardised and cobbled together wreck. It's very easy to cast the developers and producers/marketers as artists and inartistic businessmen respectively, but it's really not that simple. The entire game studio and publisher team work together to make the project. But if you are going to trash the Sonic CD US soundtrack for going against the developers then I guess you'll have to suspend judgement on which Sonic 3 OST fits the game's artistic vision. Because we have no idea whether the developers really wanted the proto tracks or the MJ team tracks.

    It also doesn't confront the fact that the artistic vision of the Sonic CD developers has no bearing on which soundtrack is better. If I prefer the US soundtrack then that's just that. The intention of the developers has no bearing on it whatsoever.

    The whole term 'vision' when used in relation to games is dumb and needs to stop being bandied around.
     
  13. Blue Spikeball

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    Sonic CD wasn't made by SoA. It was made entirely in Japan, all SoA did was replace the soundtrack.

    Of course we don't know which soundtrack fits better the Sonic 3 devs' vision without asking them. And your point is? What relevance does that have here?

    And that's irrelevant to the argument here. Nobody argued that people aren't allowed to like the US soundtrack.

    So first you argue that "the devs probably had no artistic vision". Then when people post dev quotes that show they did, you try to dismiss that by bringing up that games change during development. So I bring up that the whole concept of an artist's vision being compromised is that their work was changed by other people or outside factors, and now you're retorting with "screw the devs' vision, the term is dumb and shouldn't be applied to games because I say so"?
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
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  14. Linkabel

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    I think you're arguing points that no one is making. No one is saying you can't like the US soundtrack, people have even said that at the end of the day that's up to each person regardless of what the developers or other fans said.

    But you asked if there was even proof if the team had a vision for this game and they did.

    Does the Sonic 3 soundtrack fit the developers vision for the game? Who knows? That's a good question for them and a good debate on the relationship between art and the way it has to operate in a business environment.

    But we know that wasn't the case for CD.
     
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  15. Laura

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    I admit I was wrong about the composers being relatively laid back about the games. I thought that because games were not readily seen as art back then as now, but I was clearly wrong about that!

    But the point I'm making now is that, while the game developers undoubtedly have an artistic vision for their works, that doesn't mean that their views should be upheld as the 'true' way to approach it. The developers may well have thought the JP soundtrack meshed best with the game, but that doesn't mean that the US soundtrack therefore does not mesh with it. It's a matter of opinion.

    I mean Sonic Team more than anyone else is indicative of how the intention of creators can be at odds with what makes their work enjoyable. Even Balan Wonderworld shows that Naka and Ohshima may not always be right.
     
  16. Ted618

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    Games as a medium would've ever gotten much further than kids stuff if people didn't think outside the box and have genuine aspirations for them as an art form - particularly with older releases it's obviously not always a given that developers did have artistic visions for them, but judging from what others have said I think a number of people have indeed picked up that SCD had a fair bit of love put into it.

    (fwiw, I was aware of several of the quotes that were posted here beforehand, but had always kind of assumed that was what the team were going for, especially considering the composers in particular would've had more to work with than ever before for a Sonic release)
     
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  17. Xiao Hayes

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    Let's put it simpler: SCD had artistic direction. An artist lead other artists so the game showed a cohesive artistic concept and, at the same time, he lead programmers so the "mechanical" and the artistic sides of the product would also be cohesive between them, thus providing a playable piece of art.
     
  18. The Joebro64

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    @Gryson I hate to ask the same question twice, but would you mind providing the page numbers for this stuff as well? Same reason as last time - I'm rewriting the Sonic 2 Wiki article and I'm using a lot of more recent research and interviews in the process.
     
  19. Gryson

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    No problem - the excerpt is on pp. 96-97.
     
  20. cartridgeculture

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    I’d have to side on it comprimising the vision too. And by a lot; the music is SO so important to the feeling of SCD. Not that Spencer Nilsen didn’t give his soundtrack a special kind of feeling on its own, its just... the JP soundtrack was lightning in a jar. This perfect intersection of people and passion and money and technology, and the soundtrack is just so incredibly unique. It brings you into the game so much more intimately than the US soundtrack. Its more varied, sparkly and bright, with all kinds of fun funky sounds and beats that are still largely unique to this era.

    It was composed with intent and skill, and to strip it from the game does it an honest disservice to that original intent. And I don’t think saying that necessary detracts from the US soundtrack, or indicates that there’s one best way to enjoy something. There’s the original way that the creator intended and there’s the way anyone else wants to interpet it. I wouldn’t consider either at odds.
     
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