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Sega Forever

Discussion in 'General Sega Discussion' started by High Fidelity, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    I don't think you know how emulation works. Emulation is duplicating physical functionality in software without touching the original implementation.

    Easy example, this is the physical circuitry for a half adder -

    [​IMG]

    There is an infintite number of ways to reproduce the logical function of this circuitry. A quick example trying to be as obtuse as possible:

    Code (Text):
    1. int halfadder(bool a, bool b, bool *s, bool *c)
    2. {
    3. Switch(a)
    4. Case true:
    5. { switch(b)
    6. Case true: &s = 0; &c = 1;
    7. Break;
    8. Default: &s = 1; &c = 0;
    9. }
    10. Break;
    11. Default: &s =0; &c = 0;
    12. }
    13.  
    14. Return 1;
    15. }
    To prove what I say, here is the same function written in a totally different way:

    Code (Text):
    1. int halfadder(bool a, bool b, bool *s, bool *c)
    2. {
    3. &s = 0;
    4. &c = 0;
    5. If(!(a || b)) &s = true;
    6. If(a && b) &c = true;
    7.  
    8. Return 1;
    9. }
    The code and the circuit proform the same function, but the code is not the circuitry. Both the codes above and the circuit represent a well understood concept in linear algebra. You cannot own linear algebraic functions, that is akin to owning, say, chord progression.

    Roms are nothing more than a list of opcodes being read into physical circuitry. Each opcode has a corresponding identifier code. Emulation is opening up a dumped rom and seeing which commands are being fed to the processor, theb performing equivalent functions in software. If instruction code 0000 with register 1 holding a and register 2 holding b is the sign to perform half adder arithmetic on a and b into registers 3 holding a and register 4 holding c, what you do is examine the execution code and when 0000 is called, perform my above halfadder subroutine.

    There is no stealing of code going on. No theft. No copyright violation. Emulation is legal, this is unquestionable. And each author's code is their own.

    What isn't legal is taking my above code which, say I have released under the gpl (like the emulators allegedly being stolen in question) and selling it as though it were your own. No, you don't own the code. Go write your own functions. You should not be able to steal work and sell it without my permission.

    And, an aside - Much of the Sega Genesis is off-the-shelf parts, not invented by Sega. Sega didn't invent the m68k. Sega didn't invent the z80. Etc.
     
  2. Lodmot

    Lodmot

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    Alright, makes sense.

    Having said that though, I can still see why Sega isn't crazy about emulators. Like I said before, they sort of enable piracy of games on Sega Genesis/Master System/Dreamcast. But then again I also understand they're technically not responsible for the distribution of pirated games. But they are influencing it by allowing people to play the content.

    Take the new Dreamcast emulator that's being made for Xbox One. I highly doubt that will stay available for very long, even if it IS original code. It's enabling people to access their content without having to pay for it, so Sega's losing profit. Many Sega emulators have actually been disappearing from the Windows 10 store too I've noticed. Kinda sucks for us and the people that make the emulators, but I can also see why companies like Sega aren't crazy about it.
     
  3. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    Who says Sega isn't crazy about emulators? They don't go around shutting emulation projects down. And they have a very long history of actually purchasing emulators (like giri giri and KGen98) or hiring emulator authors (like Steve Snake, or the Nebula author to help with Daytona USA).

    In fact, their history makes the entire situation with LibRetro all the more bizarre. It would go against their historic behavior. They should know better than this.

    None of that would be Sega's call. That's all Microsoft.
     
  4. Lodmot

    Lodmot

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    If Sega has a long history of purchasing emulators, then the only thing I can think of is we're not getting the entire story about the LibRetro situation. From what I saw in this thread, it sounds like the only source we have is a few twitter posts.
     
  5. Covarr

    Covarr

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    Let's clear some things up:

    1. The new classic Sega console is being made by AtGames, not Sega. Sure, Sega owns the included games, but ultimately this is a licensed product that they are not so directly involved in.
    2. Sega also has a long history of not providing enough oversight when they work with other companies. This has led to disaster after disaster, including Aliens: Colonial Marines and Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric. I would not be surprised if AtGames is up to some shady shit and Sega is blissfully unaware because they (foolishly) left this in AtGames' hands.
    3. We know approximately nothing about Sega Forever, except that it has something to do with retro games and mobile. This Libretro mess is linked to the AtGames console, but the only connection we have between that and Sega Forever, at least at this point, is assumptions and speculation.

    At the end of the day, even if Sega Forever does turn out to be emulation of classics, we don't really have anything to go on saying it'll use the same emulator as the Sega Genesis Flashback.
     
  6. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    the LibRetro guys claim they gave their presentation to GoGame, not AtGames. GoGame is a subsidiary of Sega for the express purpose of publishing mobile games.

    https://gogame.net/our-story

    From the LibRetro guys:

    They never dealt with AtGames.

    Actually, scratch that -- they did deal with AtGames... which GoGame was involved with.

    From your very own links.
     
  7. Covarr

    Covarr

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    Derp, you're right. I missed the part about GoGame being connected to AtGames. Still, we don't know that this is necessarily connected to Sega Forever at this point; everything the Libretro links has said seems to be about the Flashback console.

    Mind you, I'm not saying it isn't related to Sega Forever, but we really only have a tenuous connection at this point.
     
  8. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    Hence my "ifs" and "allegedly."

    Sega is, bar none, my favorite company in the world. I really, really hope this is all a misunderstanding, because I really don't want to think of them this way.
     
  9. bookman the stinky

    bookman the stinky

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    SEGA is a bigger company and has more of a reputation at stake to tarnish than HyperKin, I wouldn't think they'd want to risk looking like dickholes with douchey practices for their software.
    They have used other's software (my knowledge of how the permission was obtained is garbage) for Sega Smash Pack 1 & 2 (KGEN by Steve Snake IIRC), Sonic Collection on the DS was made on a heavily modified version of JenesisDS.
    I'm actually interested in knowing how they go about getting an emulator in the works for this project. I know their collections have had varying levels of emulation accuracy when compared to what can be achieved already *coughcoughSEGAClassicsonSteamcoughcough*
     
  10. biggestsonicfan

    biggestsonicfan

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    Chiming in: Nebula author aka ElSemi aka owns his own game porting company BitWorks, and even worked with Taxman on the 2011 Sonic CD rerelease even.

    Source: link. I wonder if they are still in contact.

    This is just a heavily-viled cash-grab to release more rehashes/mobile ports, I'm sure.
     
  11. Epsilonsama

    Epsilonsama

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    I'm pretty sure it's perfectly legal for someone to use GPL emulators, but you have to make the source code available.

    If SEGA uses let say Genesis Plus GX code, they have to make their modifications available.
     
  12. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    Genesis Plus GX's license prohibits commercial use all together:

    https://www.libretro.com/index.php/category/non-commercial/

    I mean, this isn't even hidden in their license, it's the very first term:

    https://github.com/ekeeke/Genesis-Plus-GX/blob/master/LICENSE.txt

     
  13. Epsilonsama

    Epsilonsama

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    Interesting, for a second I thought Genesis Plus GX was licensed under the GPL and therefore free software. Then it's pretty dangerous to even read the source code if that is the case. If I was working on a Genesis Emulator the last thing I would do is try to use code from non-commercial software.

    On another note I was searching for an Genesis Emulator that is in fact free software and therefore allow commercial use. It seems god ol' Dgen uses a BSD style license making it a much better Emulator to use in terms of legal issues. I'm surprised that in 10 minutes I could have found this out, it's no excuse for commercial companies to not do the same.
     
  14. Sappharad

    Sappharad

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    They could get around the license problem by using older code from before the license was changed, but if they're using Libretro then nothing for them to use exists. The license change was over 10 years ago and the original Genesis Plus site and code are long gone. After ekeeke forked the project and got permission to relicense it, they discouraged people from keeping the original source around, although there's a 7z file on the Retro wiki with the source code from 2003 in it which is before the license change. Of course, this doesn't have any of the improvements made since then, GPGX is much more accurate and complete.
     
  15. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    Just a note - even software licensed under the GPL can include clauses preventing Tivo-ization. Tivo-ization is where open sourced software is re-purposed to a closed-top box that offers the end user no way to modify or update the software included. The term refers to, of course, Tivo boxes, which popularized the practice until it was challenged.

    LibRetro in general has a clause preventing Tivo-ization.
     
  16. Ashura96

    Ashura96

    HEROIC VERSE Oldbie
    Sigh,

    After yesterday's Dreamcast tease, today we are left with more Sega game tease posts.
     
  17. Zeether

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    If they're hyping nothing more than a subscription service for mobile games then that's disappointment city for me, especially since they're putting Saturn in the teasers and they've never gone to the effort of emulating Saturn on any platform. I've gotten burned out on trying to play action games by fingering around on my phone screen and I have no idea if they'd support Bluetooth controllers with this.
     
  18. Ravenfreak

    Ravenfreak

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    Well as it turns out, Sega forever is a mobile app. http://www.seganerds.com/2017/06/21/sega-forever-is-officially-revealed/
     
  19. redhotsonic

    redhotsonic

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  20. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WVPRuWUXfs

    Gamesindustry.biz has an interview about this up. Apparently 90% of this was handled in Unity, so seems doubtful they used libretro's demo for this. Also while they are trying to get this thing on mobile right first, they are looking at other platforms including desktop, Facebook, and consoles like Switch.