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Sally in Sonic 1!

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by E-122-Psi, Jan 2, 2010.

  1. iojnekns

    iojnekns

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    I see no reason why you couldn't include all of these moves, in addition to any other that you might dream up! Why would you have to forfeit kick moves to include a laser?
     
  2. Dr. Kylstein

    Dr. Kylstein

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    I've been waiting for this release, and you did not disappoint! It's pretty neat how this alters the strategies for the game. I've also noticed art I hadn't the first time, and the thoroughness of the changes is something I haven't seen in many sprite-hacks. Of course, the art itself is awesome, especially the animation!

    I have one small complaint, though. Could you move the kick to the 'B' button? I play with the original game pad, and <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=11640&view=findpost&p=342837" target="_blank">the discussion starting here</a> and <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=11640&view=findpost&p=342879" target="_blank">ending with Sik's post</a> describes the problem nicely.
     
  3. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    <!--quoteo(post=396076:date=Jan 14 2010, 08:43 PM:name=Dr. Kylstein)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dr. Kylstein @ Jan 14 2010, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396076">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been waiting for this release, and you did not disappoint! It's pretty neat how this alters the strategies for the game. I've also noticed art I hadn't the first time, and the thoroughness of the changes is something I haven't seen in many sprite-hacks. Of course, the art itself is awesome, especially the animation!

    I have one small complaint, though. Could you move the kick to the 'B' button? I play with the original game pad, and <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=11640&view=findpost&p=342837" target="_blank">the discussion starting here</a> and <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=11640&view=findpost&p=342879" target="_blank">ending with Sik's post</a> describes the problem nicely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thanx. Glad you like the changes.

    Actually I was intending to use B beforehand, however I changed it to A so it neither interferes with debug (B to turn into an object) or the demos (which program C to jump, though the demos are pretty ****ed up from the gameplay changes anyway). I could make an alternate version if you wish.
     
  4. Mercury

    Mercury

    His Name Is Sonic Tech Member
    <!--quoteo(post=396013:date=Jan 14 2010, 11:36 PM:name=iojnekns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iojnekns @ Jan 14 2010, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396013">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see no reason why you couldn't include all of these moves, in addition to any other that you might dream up! Why would you have to forfeit kick moves to include a laser?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I agree. It's cool for characters to have a special ability along with their basic ability.

    Although, Nicole is pretty small for having a powerful laser, and ranged attacks might make the game too easy. Perhaps if the laser was powered by Rings?
     
  5. ShadowsofYesterday

    ShadowsofYesterday

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    <!--quoteo(post=396076:date=Jan 14 2010, 08:43 PM:name=Dr. Kylstein)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dr. Kylstein @ Jan 14 2010, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396076">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have one small complaint, though. Could you move the kick to the 'B' button? I play with the original game pad, and <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=11640&view=findpost&p=342837" target="_blank">the discussion starting here</a> and <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=11640&view=findpost&p=342879" target="_blank">ending with Sik's post</a> describes the problem nicely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Careful with that. You can't please everyone. People who play with a real Genesis controller, or on a real Genesis, are likely to use the control scheme laid out in that thread you linked to (read: C button = primary action/jump). However, a lot of people don't HAVE a Genesis, or a Genesis controller (myself included). Personally, I play on an emulator with either a Logitech Dual Action or an XBox 360 controller. The Dual Action is basically a carbon copy of the PS2 controller, but for PC (and without force feedback), and of course, the 360 controller's button layout is the same. In other words, with either of those controllers it's most convenient for me to use their equivalent of the B button as the primary action button (read: jump), because that's the button that's closest to my thumb.

    Basically, if you make a set control scheme that changes the function of the B button, you're pissing someone off, whether it's emulatorfags, or real-hardwarefags. In order to avoid this, the best option is for you to create a menu where people can customize their controls. A lot of later games (mostly from the 3D era and onward) have this, but you rarely see it in classic 2D platformers (because they're so simple they typically don't need it). I think if you put this in your hack, you could avoid people bitching over controls.
     
  6. iojnekns

    iojnekns

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    I can't imagine anything that matters less. Although I highly doubt you were going to entertain the idea anyway, let me register my distaste at spending the amount of time and effort needed for creating a menu screen to address the most minor quibbles I can possibly think of (particularly at your fledgling level of ability) in lieu of spending time on the actual gameplay features that you want to include that would actually have an impact on gameplay.

    The button is A. Get used to pressing A.
     
  7. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because unlike most consoles, the A button in the Mega Drive is the furthest one from the thumb :P Look at the NES, A is the main button but it's the nearest one to the thumb. I know this has been already said, but oh well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The fuck? Did Sik have extremly tiny thumbs?
     
  8. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    <!--quoteo(post=396231:date=Jan 15 2010, 05:55 AM:name=Mercury)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mercury @ Jan 15 2010, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396231">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=396013:date=Jan 14 2010, 11:36 PM:name=iojnekns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iojnekns @ Jan 14 2010, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396013">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see no reason why you couldn't include all of these moves, in addition to any other that you might dream up! Why would you have to forfeit kick moves to include a laser?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I agree. It's cool for characters to have a special ability along with their basic ability.

    Although, Nicole is pretty small for having a powerful laser, and ranged attacks might make the game too easy. Perhaps if the laser was powered by Rings?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's more along the lines I don't want to clutter up her control scheme too much, I think Sonic usually works better with a simplistic control scheme with usually only one or two buttons (even most of the SA1 characters kept this mechanic). When they started making things more complex I think things started to take a downturn (I was iffy about Heroes because it lacked the simplicity of the originals).

    I was thinking more on the lines of NICOLE giving a little blast (be it part of Sally's own sprite or a separate projectile, though I'm still not sure how to input whole new sprites and programming outside of editing an existing one) rather than accurate projectile. It's actually less on the lines of making her attack more effeciant or work differently but more just making her gameplay and abilities unique. Rouge has kick abilities as does Sonic in Battle (the animations are actually based on those from said game), and martial arts just seems to be the generic 'placeholder' ability for any 'mortal' character (Coco Bandicoot also has martial arts). While the idea of a lazer isn't that new, NICOLE gives a slightly unique edge to the character. I guess I might be getting a little overambitious, I'm just kinda theorizing how I believe Sally would play if she were actually inserted into the games series, almost like I'm trying to endorse her and show what she could do, I guess.

    Outside of that I want her to be an exceptional 'agility' character, hense why I want to figure out how to program a few jump moves like Wall Jump (though I already given her a higher jump that allows her to reach a few odd ledges that Sonic couldn't with good precision). Sally's high point is more manuevability than attack.

    <!--quoteo(post=396264:date=Jan 15 2010, 08:16 AM:name=iojnekns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iojnekns @ Jan 15 2010, 08:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396264">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't imagine anything that matters less. Although I highly doubt you were going to entertain the idea anyway, let me register my distaste at spending the amount of time and effort needed for creating a menu screen to address the most minor quibbles I can possibly think of (particularly at your fledgling level of ability) in lieu of spending time on the actual gameplay features that you want to include that would actually have an impact on gameplay.

    The button is A. Get used to pressing A.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Truthfully I think just making an alternate upload with B attacks would be A LOT easier anyway, it actually would take all of a few minutes to make. That said I may wait until I make a new revision that makes a few fixes and alterations first otherwise I'll just have to double my load everytime I make a refinement.
     
  9. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    "A" to kick? I can't remember the last official Mega Drive game that didn't use "B" to attack (and then, "C" to jump) as default. =\
     
  10. Dr. Kylstein

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    I didn't expect so much bickering after it seemed to be settled in the other thread.
    <!--quoteo(post=396257:date=Jan 15 2010, 07:49 AM:name=ShadowsofYesterday)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ShadowsofYesterday @ Jan 15 2010, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396257">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Careful with that. You can't please everyone. People who play with a real Genesis controller, or on a real Genesis, are likely to use the control scheme laid out in that thread you linked to (read: C button = primary action/jump). However, a lot of people don't HAVE a Genesis, or a Genesis controller (myself included). Personally, I play on an emulator with either a Logitech Dual Action or an XBox 360 controller. The Dual Action is basically a carbon copy of the PS2 controller, but for PC (and without force feedback), and of course, the 360 controller's button layout is the same. In other words, with either of those controllers it's most convenient for me to use their equivalent of the B button as the primary action button (read: jump), because that's the button that's closest to my thumb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So remap the emulator controls! Put buttons that were close together on the Genesis close together on your gamepad. People using real hardware don't have that option, you do.
     
  11. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    <!--quoteo(post=396305:date=Jan 15 2010, 10:54 AM:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight @ Jan 15 2010, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396305">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"A" to kick? I can't remember the last official Mega Drive game that didn't use "B" to attack (and then, "C" to jump) as default. =\<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    True but most of these games didn't have a debug mode like Sonic's. Using B to attack would be overwritten by the transformation code for debug mode and thus render Sally defenseless. C button is used to jump in demos it seems so that is out of the question too.
     
  12. LukyHRE

    LukyHRE

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    Just a question, is difficult to remap the debug controls to X, Y and Z? That way you'll have the ABC buttons entirely free for Sally's actions.
     
  13. ShadowsofYesterday

    ShadowsofYesterday

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    <!--quoteo(post=396264:date=Jan 15 2010, 08:16 AM:name=iojnekns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iojnekns @ Jan 15 2010, 08:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396264">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't imagine anything that matters less. Although I highly doubt you were going to entertain the idea anyway, let me register my distaste at spending the amount of time and effort needed for creating a menu screen to address the most minor quibbles I can possibly think of (particularly at your fledgling level of ability) in lieu of spending time on the actual gameplay features that you want to include that would actually have an impact on gameplay.

    The button is A. Get used to pressing A.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--quoteo(post=396318:date=Jan 15 2010, 11:19 AM:name=Dr. Kylstein)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dr. Kylstein @ Jan 15 2010, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396318">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't expect so much bickering after it seemed to be settled in the other thread.
    <!--quoteo(post=396257:date=Jan 15 2010, 07:49 AM:name=ShadowsofYesterday)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ShadowsofYesterday @ Jan 15 2010, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396257">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Careful with that. You can't please everyone. People who play with a real Genesis controller, or on a real Genesis, are likely to use the control scheme laid out in that thread you linked to (read: C button = primary action/jump). However, a lot of people don't HAVE a Genesis, or a Genesis controller (myself included). Personally, I play on an emulator with either a Logitech Dual Action or an XBox 360 controller. The Dual Action is basically a carbon copy of the PS2 controller, but for PC (and without force feedback), and of course, the 360 controller's button layout is the same. In other words, with either of those controllers it's most convenient for me to use their equivalent of the B button as the primary action button (read: jump), because that's the button that's closest to my thumb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So remap the emulator controls! Put buttons that were close together on the Genesis close together on your gamepad. People using real hardware don't have that option, you do.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Goddamn, I didn't expect to OFFEND people by making a reasonable suggestion.

    iojnekns, your argument is that putting in such a menu would take time away from putting features in the game. As if the game had some sort of deadline, and the author can only do so much. Hell, if he/she wants, he/she could give it to me, and I'd put the menu in by my damn self. That way, none of his/her time is taken away from developing features. That you acted like such a menu would be the bane of your existence ('let me register my distaste at...') almost seems to suggest you're just looking for a fight where there needn't be one. I wasn't being an asshole about it or anything. I made the suggestion to PREVENT any potential squabbling.

    Dr. Kylstein, your argument is that the emulator allows people to change their control schemes. Certainly a reasonable argument, if you ignore the fact that people would have to change their control scheme every time they play that particular rom, and then change it back every time they play anything else. Also, your argument falls into the category of "Fuck changing the product to accommodate the consumer, the consumer should change themselves to accommodate the product."

    The author seems to be the only person here thinking even remotely reasonably, offering to make an alternate controls version of the hack (admittedly, it would be simpler than making customizable controls, though it would lack the versatility and efficiency).
    <!--quoteo(post=396264:date=Jan 15 2010, 08:16 AM:name=iojnekns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iojnekns @ Jan 15 2010, 08:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396264">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The button is A. Get used to pressing A.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Personally, I use whatever button the rom in question wants me to use without complaint. The whole controls issue doesn't actually concern me in the slightest. It takes getting used to, and can annoy me at times when I press B to jump and end up insta-dashing or something (here's looking at you, BroTro), but I get used to it. I really don't care about controls. Controls on a controller with three buttons and a D-pad (not counting the pause button) aren't exactly an issue. But if people are going to complain about it and raise a fuss over nothing, then there's no point in making a big deal over giving them an option to change their controls.

    That said, it's not going to happen anyway, and I find the author's solution to be perfectly sound and reasonable as it is, so I'm not going to push the idea. Whatever.
     
  14. Aquaslash

    Aquaslash

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    <!--quoteo(post=396327:date=Jan 15 2010, 12:03 PM:name=LukyHRE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LukyHRE @ Jan 15 2010, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396327">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a question, is difficult to remap the debug controls to X, Y and Z? That way you'll have the ABC buttons entirely free for Sally's actions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes, since none of the Sonic games support those buttons, you have to add the support yourself.
     
  15. iojnekns

    iojnekns

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    Rest assured, I can read contrary opinion without taking offense and I am puzzled as to how we are to discuss objections or differences if you assume that any point of objection is "the bane of my existence". The reason why I expressed disdain for the idea is because I personally would not have made a comment over what I consider such a trivial and inane detail.

    I don't wish to de-rail E-122-Psi's thread by cockfighting with you ShadowsofYesterday, so please consider this post to be me simply responding to yours rather than indicating that it be the bane of my existence, my attempt at starting a petty squabble or otherwise looking for a fight, if that is possible. My point wasn't that the hack is being made to deadline or anything to do with time constraints, but rather that it seemed absurd to suggest that E-122-Psi to cater to your personal whims and preferences in regard to control schemes when it is his project, the choice in controls he implemented was his choice to make and I assume he has other aspects of the hack he would rather be working on. I'm not particularly passionate or enraged about the matter, I just thought that in the time it took for him to make those changes, you could simply get used to the new button. Honestly, the only reason I reacted at all was the inanity, or perceived 'nit-pickiness' of it. It brought to mind the incredulous squabbling over a single pixel that occurred in the ill-fated Project:Sonic Retro - to my mind, the button used to kick just doesn't matter one iota. So I said so. I'm sorry if you feel this was an act of aggression on my part. I have no wish to cause a fuss.

    @E-122-Psi
    That you were going for simplicity actually hadn't occurred to me. I do like the idea of using NICOLE for something though (I suspect you do to), though a lazer is definitely a feasible idea.
     
  16. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    Seriously, guys it's not that big a deal, everyone seems to be agreed with the compromise which I will make next revision so lets not argue about it anymore.

    Okay, here's a number of fixes or changes I could aim for in upcoming revisions:

    *Suggested alt control layout.
    *Fix garbled graphics (anyone know any free RAM locations other than the one used in the spin dash tutorial?).
    *Fix ending, Sally goes too fast for some reason, and some sprites are garbled.
    *Fine tune the attack's effect on the walls (they seem to give garbled graphics, and the jump kick doesn't work at all, branching error?).
    *Fix odd sprite transition, after using her jump kick the animation transitions into her running while still in mid air.
    *Another is her ground kick, whenever interupted in some manner (eg. turning around, falling off a ledge) it restarts rather than merely continuing in the new postion.
    *Maybe edit the kicks into a NICOLE lazer animation instead for more unique abilities.
    *Maybe add other abilties albeit without cluttering the control scheme (anyone know how to go about inputing the wall jump? Edit the Sonic_HitWall coding per chance?).
    *Add 'Sally Acorn in' logo onto title screen (anyone know how to make and program new objects?)

    Additionally does anyone think Sally is too fast? While I decreased her by $100 speed her accelleration seems to make her almost as fast as Sonic, she goes down slopes much quicker for some reason. Also I can toggle whether or not she can use attack when using a spring.

    EDIT: Fixed the garbled wall smash graphics, also added a little sound effect to Sally's kick attack.
     
  17. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    I think Sally's speed is fine, but I'd just drop the running animation in favor of a fast walking animation.
     
  18. Kerio Da Wolf

    Kerio Da Wolf

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    Are you disabling Super Sonic asm, or are you going to make Super Sally sprites for said situation?
     
  19. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    <!--quoteo(post=396889:date=Jan 16 2010, 08:03 PM:name=Kerio Da Wolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kerio Da Wolf @ Jan 16 2010, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=396889">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you disabling Super Sonic asm, or are you going to make Super Sally sprites for said situation?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is Sonic 1 so there is no Super Sonic asm anyway. I may make some Super Sally sprites for a future project however.
     
  20. MastaSys

    MastaSys

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    Your "spriting" skills are truly amazing, on par of commercial games.

    This clearly on my top list of best Sonic modification ever!
    And it's nice to see such effort on Satam characters.
    Amazing work! :)

    (Why you don't change Game's Dr. "Eggman" Robotnik to Dr. Robotnik from Satam to help in the spirit of the modification? Of course that takes maybe too much work... But I will just leave here as an suggestion to consider or to ignore...)