S2BETA4 discussion

Discussion in 'Prototype Discussion' started by drx, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. clibinarius

    clibinarius

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    Naming Convention Question:

    Are the names "Beta 4-8" taken from Sega themselves? I'm curious because I'm not sure whether or not that would include our prototypes or is that simply the work immediately before Sonic 2 was released? Because if its consistent, wouldn't that make the NA prototype "Beta 1" and the Wai "Beta 2"? Or are these different and why?
     
  2. drx

    drx

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    :rolleyes:
    Beta 4-8 are official names.

    The other prototypes are alphas (NA is possibly a pre-alpha).
     
  3. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    For the sake of simplicity, it may be better to simply refer to the older builds we have as prototypes. It doesn't fall victim to strict naming conventions that have to be pinpointed exactly, and most of the time without accuracy.
     
  4. drx

    drx

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    Yes, indeed. I merely noted that they were not betas, but rather alphas.
     
  5. clibinarius

    clibinarius

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    Are there any dates for Betas 1-3 then? Obviously they weren't in the archives or couldn't be released at this time, but what can be expected from them? Are there any logs denoting when they were programmed? Is there any confirmation that the NA and Wai aren't 1 and 2 respectively and not Alphas? With the magazine clippings and all...it seems consistent that only 10 versions of Sonic exist (NA, Wai, the magazines, and then these and the two finals). That seems consistent with the naming convention also.

    The more I think of these prototypes the more and more I compare them to listening to bootlegged records-its a process to see what the artists are doing...I'm interested in finding out what decisions were made, when they were and why. These prototypes are interesting insights to that; but its hard for me to understand Naka's state of mind. One question I have is exactly how much work was put into Sonic 2 as far as programming man hours (it seems very very rushed to me).

    The prototypes are spectacular. Its amazing that they came out in the way they did. Thanks.
     
  6. Overlord

    Overlord

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    No
    Earlier builds, with more bugs, but close to final
    No
    YES, THEY'RE NOWHERE NEAR FINISHED, A BETA IS A FEATURE-COMPLETE PRODUCT (sorry, but so many people fail to grasp this basic definition)
    There are as many S2 builds as there were programmers hitting compile. How many still exist is up for debate, but there have been hundreds.

    In that order of answering your paragraph of questions.
     
  7. clibinarius

    clibinarius

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    I understand that definition. I called Wai's version an alpha years ago for that reason. That's not the point.

    The point is I'm trying to understand just how quickly this game was completed. As far as many were hitting compile...these wouldn't necessarily be circulated among the whole team.
     
  8. Quickman

    Quickman

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    That's how all development goes when there's a deadline. You start with a core concept and a pool of ideas, the ideas get implemented, then corners start to get cut as the deadline approaches. (If there's no deadline you get Linux.)
     
  9. Sazpaimon

    Sazpaimon

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    As far as my own speculation as to why Beta1-3 werent in the release, they might have never been sent to QA in the first place. It wouldn't surprise me that when they assigned Beta 1, 2 and 3, they might have found some major game breaking flaws before sending to QA and kept fixing them. Beta4 might have been the first build that Sega's QA department got ahold of.
     
  10. Onigashima

    Onigashima

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    I found some differences in wing fortress here, between Beta 4 and the final rom.

    <img src="http://onigashimasimages.webs.com/Sonic%20the%20Hedgehog%202000.bmp" border="0" class="linked-image" /> FINAL
    <img src="http://onigashimasimages.webs.com/Sonic%20The%20Hedgehog%202%20(Beta%204)002.bmp" border="0" class="linked-image" /> BETA 4
    --------
    <img src="http://onigashimasimages.webs.com/Copy%20(2)%20of%20Sonic%20the%20Hedgehog%202000.bmp" border="0" class="linked-image" /> FINAL
    <img src="http://onigashimasimages.webs.com/Sonic%20The%20Hedgehog%202%20(Beta%204)000.bmp" border="0" class="linked-image" /> BETA 4
    --------
    <img src="http://onigashimasimages.webs.com/Copy%20(2)%20of%20Sonic%20the%20Hedgehog%202001.bmp" border="0" class="linked-image" /> FINAL
    <img src="http://onigashimasimages.webs.com/Sonic%20The%20Hedgehog%202%20(Beta%204)001.bmp" border="0" class="linked-image" /> BETA 4


    ... Also when you use a save state from S2 BETA4 into the final Sonic 2 rom, and then soft reset, you can automaticly use Level select and debug without entering the code
     
  11. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Nice finds. Looks like they made some parts easier and then some harder to balance the difficulty.
     
  12. Overlord

    Overlord

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    Indeed, well spotted.



    Tip for the future - use PNG rather than BMP for your images, the filesizes are like 10 times larger than they need to be.
     
  13. ColinC10

    ColinC10

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    Speaking of changing the difficulty, that reminds me of something I came across when this was originally released. I thought someone would have mentioned it, but I don't see it anywhere.

    <img src="http://kqhr7q.bay.livefilestore.com/y1ptQXncHt7SM1IUsECWjGfHZltNFvD1bRFmQVgAqAGhParJ3djSEz2pOsr0y_ODpdtLh4kYyXL082RT52dIdYRAyp06NgFZE1i/S2B4.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Beta 4

    <img src="http://kqhr7q.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pRU8gHQvTF_5oKKxCWpnIf6S0NHFUZymNFdzoTV0DKY9IGQfrcgzS7WOF2DoB0bFi73AsDy0epG5GlkIBjahmxFfsqw8xAgIh/S2B5.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Beta 5 -> Final

    The dreaded Mystic Cave Zone Act 2 Pit of Death looks like most other spike pits in the level, with a spring to get out and even a ring monitor. In the next beta it changes to the inescapable version that we're all horribly familiar with. Why, designers, why? :argh:
     
  14. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

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    <!--quoteo(post=459188:date=May 25 2010, 10:09 PM:name=ColinC10)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColinC10 @ May 25 2010, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=459188"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Beta 4 MCZ Pit Image

    Beta 5 -> Final MCZ Pit Image

    ...with a spring to get out...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    See, there's still a problem with this in the Beta 4 version. If you grab the vine above to pull the drawbridge down and jump off too soon (like I used to do a lot), you end up in the pit with the drawbridge covering the top and a spring which is now useless. I think (This is just speculation) this was changed on purpose to stop this situation from occuring. I know you could manually kill yourself by using the spikes, but I don't think that'd be rational.
    Mind, this is all just my opinion.
     
  15. Overlord

    Overlord

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    <!--quoteo(post=459194:date=May 25 2010, 10:23 PM:name=D.A. Garden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (D.A. Garden @ May 25 2010, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=459194"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=459188:date=May 25 2010, 10:09 PM:name=ColinC10)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColinC10 @ May 25 2010, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=459188"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Beta 4 MCZ Pit Image

    Beta 5 -> Final MCZ Pit Image

    ...with a spring to get out...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    See, there's still a problem with this in the Beta 4 version. If you grab the vine above to pull the drawbridge down and jump off too soon (like I used to do a lot), you end up in the pit with the drawbridge covering the top and a spring which is now useless. I think (This is just speculation) this was changed on purpose to stop this situation from occuring. I know you could manually kill yourself by using the spikes, but I don't think that'd be rational.
    Mind, this is all just my opinion.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    On reflection, this actually does make sense as the reason why. Better a certain death pit than one that torments you with a way out you can't use.
     
  16. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    <!--quoteo(post=459598:date=May 26 2010, 07:18 PM:name=Overlord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Overlord @ May 26 2010, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=459598"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On reflection, this actually does make sense as the reason why. Better a certain death pit than one that torments you with a way out you can't use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Of course, the correct solution is to make the bridge solid from the top only when it's horizontal.
     
  17. Overlord

    Overlord

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    <!--quoteo(post=459633:date=May 26 2010, 08:15 PM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ May 26 2010, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=459633"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=459598:date=May 26 2010, 07:18 PM:name=Overlord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Overlord @ May 26 2010, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=459598"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On reflection, this actually does make sense as the reason why. Better a certain death pit than one that torments you with a way out you can't use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Of course, the correct solution is to make the bridge solid from the top only when it's horizontal.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well yes, but at this point in the dev cycle when the game is being rushed towards a release, which is easier - programming an object that will therefore need testing everywhere else it's placed, or just removing 2 objects from a pit? =P
     
  18. ColinC10

    ColinC10

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    Yeah, the change that D. A. Garden explained definitely does make sense. I never thought of that before. It's just a shame they went with the Spike Pit of Death rather than a regular bottomless pit.
     
  19. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    <!--quoteo(post=460300:date=May 27 2010, 03:41 PM:name=ColinC10)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColinC10 @ May 27 2010, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=460300"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, the change that D. A. Garden explained definitely does make sense. I never thought of that before. It's just a shame they went with the Spike Pit of Death rather than a regular bottomless pit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Perhaps the "spike bug fix" was just a feature for betatesting and wasn't intended to make it into the final game. Thus making the spikes equal to a bottomless pit, just like in Sonic 1. Or Megaman.
     
  20. JoseTB

    JoseTB

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    Or perhaps the "bug fix" was actually a bug introduced accidentally :v: