S1 Hacking Studio

The problem is that anyone could already do these things, especially given that there are and clear and concise tutorials that let people apply these changes to their hacks. When you start making these things less of a learning experience and more of a tool function, though, people start to lack the intuitiveness and incentive to go out and learn more about ASM, and therefore becoming more independent as a hacker. By making things unreasonably easy, you breed a disgusting new attitude where people are unwilling to do things for themselves and make all kinds of topics where they want to start a "team," where people with actual skill do all the work for them while they take the credit for it. Not only that, but people are constantly asking for help and expecting other people to do shit for them.

I have seen this happen. I'm still seeing it happen! Whether or not this attitude will affect this particular message board in the long run is still yet to be seen—after all, we have validation and our own strict guidelines—but it is still detrimental.

I've noticed that a lot of the support in favor of this program are from people who have never solidly done any kind of ROM hacking. If you actually put the time and effort into doing things properly just to see people come out of nowhere and be all happy that one click will add whatever arbitrary feature, then start complaining when everything else isn't just as easy, it will annoy the shit out of you. And to be honest, ROM hacking isn't that difficult; all kinds of people have come to me asking how to do things and they were very easy to understand. But something like this isn't bound to affect you in any significant way unless you do know what it's like to hack the games proper.

I don't know how I'm supposed to convince you people who are already as stubborn as you are about this, but this kind of thing does not promote the right attitude. If people aren't competent enough to follow a simple tutorial in the first place, is hacking really for them? In the context of this program's original purpose, I get it—a program to help Russian hacks with little English comprehension—but in the context of our scene, I don't see how it does more good than harm.

 

Personally, I think any ASM changes that change the way the game plays should be removed from the tool—it promotes laziness and people won't learn a thing. Since Esrael's music porter already exists, I can't personally see the harm in the music porter, nor the text editor, but the big things should be left out.

 

Haha, oh it's this argument again

I actually agree with Tweaker, in fact we were talking about this tool the other day so I figured I'd come and make a comment. The problem with the tool is it destroys development and also motivation amongst people who have worked hard to add new things only to have their hard work and hack's unique features turned into a button click. The other problem I personally have with it, disregarding the button click nature, is the fact it isn't dynamic. It would actually be kind of neat to say, pick up an old hack, load it up and put Jump Dash in it with a single click, but with the tool in it's current state, it's thinly veiled source code sharing.

 

Yes but does asm even qualify as hacking anymore? At that point you're using an actual source (attained legit or not) to re-program something on a level that isn't the byte level anymore. "Hacking" has classically been a word used to describe something that, while done incorrectly, still mostly works. With the split disassemblies, you're doing things the correct way. In fact you're doing things the exact way sonic team did, minus the disassembly itself being minorly different, but it still compiles the same.

Also tweaker, you have to realize that alot of americans (and most western cultures in general) are goal-oriented. They don't care how they achieve their goal, only that they do it. This program facilitates quickly implementing new features. If you make these people's lives easier, they'll be more likely to keep hacking. Any publicity is good publicity. Lots of new people will notice how easy it is to get started, therefore new people will arrive. These new people will spit out low quality things at first, but eventually they'll keep at it and their work will improve.

I will never argue the necessity for high-quality work but you have to realize it takes alot for a person to get to that point. For instance, look how easy it is for pvmedit to make someone think they're a master hacker of sadx. But if pvmedit hadn't existed in 2005 when I started, I never would have got as far as I did.

One thing I've never particularly liked about retro is when someone new shows up who is absolutely great at level design but not so much at new artwork or programming. These people get torn down systematically because "you haven't added enough new art" or "spindash in sonic 1? LAME". Or someone who is great at new art but can't make a layout to save their lives. Same thing "This is really pretty but it doesn't play any different"

 

You are right that Spindash and Jumpdash were copy/paste guides, but I guess for me when I used to do a bit of hacking they were a learning tool for me because I didn't just copy/paste be done with it and give myself a pat on the back. :specialed: As I was following the guide I looked at what I was doing and at the code I was inserting to try and learn because I knew nothing about ASM before. So in the end if people are going to put an effort into their work I think they will do the old method, but if a person is going to be lazy in the end I wouldn't be surprised if they used a tool like this.

Still a nice program for those who want to use it. I'm just not particularly fond of it.

 

The tool actually can inspire quite well. Having fucked around with that thing, the tool is nice but the results it brings are less than desirable. Thus, I may have a real look at the hacking guide some time soon if I wanna do anything of this sort at one point.

I think it can have quite a similar effect on others -- it's simple, but the results are not where they should be, so do it better yourself! : 3

(No offense against the author meant with this, the general idea is still nice)

 

Now this I haven't seen. In fact, level design seems to be the primary point of focus—or at least I've tried to make it such—next to art when it comes to new up and budding hacks; if a hack is criticized for its level design or art, it's usually because it isn't good.

What is usually bashed when it comes to generic move additions is if they're done in a very cliché combination of factors—for example, purple Green Hill Zone with SCAA art, Sonic CD buzzbomber, Sonic 3 monitors and HUD, and Sonic CD title card font, all packaged with Spin Dash, Jump Dash, Azure Lake as the first level's BGM and a very poor level layout with broken tiles and misplaced objects everywhere. Oh yeah, and probably dynamic palettes too.

I mean... do you know how much this hack has popped up throughout the history of this scene? It almost seems like I'm joking, but this has happened so much it's practically become a meme. Who wants to play the same hack 15 times? I know I certainly don't.

 

This tool has caused quite a bit of controversy, hasn't it?

Firstly, I state my opinion on it. I think its a great idea most of the results leave a lot to be desired. I messed around with there for a few minutes, the spin dash and ease of changing zone titles was perfect but the rest leaves a lot to be desired. I for one, would never release a hack with that sort of music in it, it sounds horrible! Now, it there was a way that allowed ease of importing of external music files, that would be awesome.

Now for those who are disagreeing with the program's ideas, get over it. Seriously, not all of us are blessed with natural ability to program and fiddle with code and welcome this little help for such people. In fact, two of the most notable hacks I've played here, Sonic Megamix and Sonic Boom, are full of ASM changes, one even changes its base game beyond recognition for heaven's sake! But whats more, these are also team hacks and as I recall, a few people here doing solo hacks felt down in the dumps when SB was released a while back. So, how would that make a small new guy feel? IMO, he might as well as get all the help he can get starting off.

Besides, spin dash is present in almost every sonic 1 hack now. I most also applaud vlad for telling his community that there is a limit to what he wishes the program to do, the idea of a one click Super Sonic is kind of disturbing, even to me!

And while I think that some of you are being a bit arrogant about your skills, I sort of understand why. No no likes the idea of having their skills made redundant by a point and click interface. I know I'd be pissed if Adobe brought out versions of their programs that give its power to everyone via one click.

Just my thoughts on it.

 

I first saw this tool on the sonic-world.ru forums a couple of days back and remember being impressed with such a versatile little tool. As I've been told by multiple russian forum-goers, they don't really 'do' hacks. Even if this tool alleviates that, I'm more impressed by the tool itself than any hack that comes about as a result.

As for the big debate regarding the Future of Sonic Hacking©, okay, it breeds laziness and ignorance, but it's getting harder and harder to care. I think Dude's "goal orientated" take on things is accurate - this does sound like what is happening. I feel that if you detest the actual 'doing' of the work and are looking at the actual act of hacking as only a means to an end, you have totally the wrong attitude but thats just an opinion. People cut corners all over the place. The same people who will use this tool and not ever bother to look at ASM any deeper are the same people that steal from leaked source codes or repeatedly message experienced hackers on youtube to give them the wonderful opportunity of joining their one man team, to make their 'killer' idea a reality. They aren't likely to get much further than merely clicking their way through this program. It isn't a good thing, but I won't be losing any sleep over it.

NHY, since you named dropped us, I absolutely have to address this - but this totally isn't a jab at you. If I come across as serious, honestly, I'm perfectly chilled, I'm just exploring my own ideas on the topic. The idea that "not everyone is blessed with the ability" totally marginalises the hard work necessary to become good at assembly. It's not something you either can or can't do, and it's not something specific people are just innately good at. It might be comforting to think that the reason you aren't an ASM ninja is because you just aren't wired that way, but the truth is, the difference between you and someone like snkenjoi is the 3 years spent obsessively learning it. I think to spin it as an innate, natural ability or some kind of hereditary he-has-wizard-blood-I-don't scenario takes the blame away from an individuals own lack of dedication and makes light of the hard work put in by those who have learnt. If you aren't good enough to implement a feature and someone else is, it's because they spent longer and thought harder about it than you!

For this reason SB is THE definitive small guy hack. For the longest time, it was snkenjoi and myself in a militant attempt to take on everything ourselves. The reason why there are so many ASM changes is because snkenjoi studied ASM instead of following guides and as a result he was able to code a host of moves instead of just being able to port a spindash. It wasn't some sekrit-tech-member-team effort. The guy spent 3 entire years getting good enough to attempt some of this stuff. I'm astonished that you cited us a reason TO use this tool. If anything, if you want to make a complicated, feature rich hack like Sonic Boom, avoid shortcuts like this tool like the plague - they are a single day's worth of fish. It's much wiser to learn to fish yourself and provide a potential lifetime of fish. If you just want to take the piss on the weekend and you don't have any real ambition - you can probably use this to make something real entertaining. It's a nice tool.

 

Why is this program such a big deal? I mean, how elitist does the whole site need to be that people who don't want to turn a hobby into a time consuming extrenuous effort need to be yelled at for not trying enough? Hacking is just a hobby after all, I find it ridiculous that it's a problem just because someone made some steps a bit easier. Am I the only one who thinks what this program does is only what has become the norm for most hacks to have anyways?

It really doesn't matter at this point, or any point in the past even, people can do what they want. I've seen the argument from people here numerous times that if you don't like it, you don't have to play or even look at it. Why it even is a problem at all to any admins here just shows how much more elitist this site thinks it is compared to regular fans who don't give a shit about making it the best hack ever.

Just let people do what they want, don't be Sonic Hacking Critic Hitler about it. Jesus Christ.

 

This is a discussion forum. Both people who think this program is a big deal and people who don't think this program is a big deal have equal place to speak. Besides, I don't think anyone is being a "Sonic Hacking Hitler Critic" - even the people opposed to the concept appear calm and generally not-very-enraged. The fact is, I don't have a particular problem with the program, or the fact that its going to be used in the ways described. I'm still able to discuss the ideas brought forward, even without embodying them myself. As I say, its a discussion forum! Where would you prefer us to explore these ideas? And how is it elitist?

 

It doesn't seem like much of a discussion when everything gets refuted back with the same reply, which basically sums up to "if we can prevent bad hacks, then why not?", which is a pretty elitist idea imo.

FYI my post above wasn't responding what you had written above me, it was just a general statement to the whole discussion like everyone elses. In any case I will be using this program someday once I get more of an idea of the art I want for my hack.

 

When I first noticed the tool posted on the forum, I took a look at the replies below, noticing the amount of people giving arguments against and for the tool. It would appear that my thoughts have already been posted about the actual result of what may happen to the scene it's self, so I'll leave that out.

The tool it's self, is actually a pretty nifty thing, it's nicely done, user friendly, few glitches, however works very well. The fact that you managed to create the tool archiving it at a decent form, is something I'll congratulate you on fully.

Now that I've had my say, I'm going to disregard and move on now, great work on the tool and not what it brings to the scene.

 

@ the shoeman
We appear to be reading two different threads. It's a discussion I've enjoyed and I think that numerous people have brought numerous points to the table, which have certainly made me look at things differently. I don't know where this "same reply" of "if we can prevent bad hacks, then why not?" has come from, but thats definitely not what I've got out of it. That's a fragment of a point that Tweaker made many many posts ago. The focus since then has moved to how the tool might affect the hacker rather than the hack. I don't think voicing the opinion that you value hard work is particularly elitist, nor would it matter if it were. There are very few people who are under the delusion that the results of this discussion will affect the tool in any real way.

This is such a pointless response I'm barely sure why I'm giving it, since it doesn't contribute to the topic in any way. I just object to asking "how elitist does the whole site need to be" when the "whole site" isn't even united on the idea (not to mention the fact that "whole site" encompasses you as well) and if anyone discusses the matter and comes down on a certain side of the fence they get compared with disgraced ex-leader of Germany, Adolf Hitler! For having an opinion! Anyway, I'm dropping this as of now.

 

You guys are taking this way too seriously, I think. I understand some people put a lot of hard work into their hacks, and those are the hacks that will impress people. But if you're making a hack solely for your own amusement, then why not have a tool like this that makes it easy?

And since the results it produces are somewhat broken, anyone who is truly passionate about what they're doing will either learn how to fix it or do it themselves in the first place.

 

When I say the whole site, I'm generally talking about the admins or techies, mostly anyone who is experienced in more advanced hacking. That's the way it feels anyways.

And the Hitler thing. Come on, people make exaggerated comparisons sometimes. It's not meant to be THAT serious of a comparison, especially considering this is just a hobby. Don't look into it much :p

My feeling is just that the fact this is a continuing discussion shows that there's obviously problems with this thing for some people that don't like seeing others cheat their way doing something they learned on their own, and it's a problem that really doesn't need to be there unless that person feels they deserve more recognition just because they did more stuff on their own, which most players won't care about(I for example could care less about who coded what for how long in any hack, I just want a freaking game that looks good). I think most problems with this program would well apply to the hacking guide section though. How many people do you think just copy and paste what they need to without figuring out what any of the code does? I'm one of those examples, all I care about is getting all the behind the scenes stuff done as quick as possible since I care more about the presentation of my hack, which is mostly art oriented than anything else.

So who cares how something is done behind the scenes? I don't see why anyone should care at all. If it sucks then just ignore it, it shouldn't matter.