Remnants of playable Knuckles in Sonic 3?

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Puto, Sep 9, 2005.

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  1. Puto

    Puto

    Shin'ichi Kudō, detective. Tech Member
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    Part of Team Megamix, but haven't done any actual work in ages.
    I'm sorry if this has been posted before, but I've never seen it anywhere. I've been "playing" with gens+'s "Cheat" option to try to check for any Knuckles remants. After finding the section in RAM that holds what character you've chosen on the data screen, I changed it to "3", and got this:

    [​IMG]

    At this point I was happy. However, after starting the game, I was not playing with knuckles at all. Instead, I was playing with Sonic, and even stranger was that I started on the wrong place of Angel Island:

    [​IMG]

    During the intro, Sonic got killed. However after it started again, no intro was started and I was able to play. The game started usually until I got my first chaos emerald, and this came up in the end:

    [​IMG]

    The same happened when I finished each act, and so on.

    So here's the question: What remnants of a playable knuckles are known in Sonic 3?
     
  2. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    Everything but the sprite itself, and the object layouts. Everything else is pretty much there.

    Also, you should jump a bit lower as well, as part of Knux's stats.
     
  3. LocalH

    LocalH

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    Yeah, that's well known. Long ago, Tom41 had a section on his site for Pro Action Replay hacking, and that was one of the things that he addressed. Some time later, I hacked the routine that set the limits for the scroll, and made them go up to 3 instead of 2, in order to make Game Genie codes for the effect. Also, this data is saved in your SRAM if you play a saveable game, and so you can even access this without the Game Genie as long as you make sure to finish a zone and allow it to save. The GG codes are on Cult (and wrongly credited too, due to the old war between myself and Pachuka).

    As far as we know, those are the only leftovers, and there certainly is no tile data other than what you normally see in-game while playing as Sonic.
     
  4. Puto

    Puto

    Shin'ichi Kudō, detective. Tech Member
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    Part of Team Megamix, but haven't done any actual work in ages.
    But wouldn't the sprite be the same as the one used by the non-playable Knuckles? And also, is there any known way to access knuckles in Sonic 3? (hacked savestates, hacked roms, whatever...)
     
  5. LocalH

    LocalH

    roxoring your soxors Tech Member
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    I don't believe so. I'm not sure if there's a difference in the tile data itself, but there are pallet differences (not to mention the fact that I don't believe that quite all the Knuckles sprites are actually used in Sonic 3). I'd say the programmers probably just made Knuckles point to Sonic's pallet and mappings as a quick fix, so that the game wouldn't have problems due to not having the proper Knuckles mappings.

    Of course, through hacking, anything is possible within the hardware limitations (and sometimes, if you're good, and depending on the system, you can even surpass them). But as far as a stock Sonic 3 ROM, the only thing you can get is what you found, either with RAM hacking (such as you did) with a PAR, or ROM hacking with a GG or PAR.
     
  6. Robjoe

    Robjoe

    Member
    Sorry to bump this, but I have a question related to the topic, so it should be OK. What is the Game Genie code for accessing Knuckles on the file selection menu in Sonic 3 standalone? And before anyone tells me to use the search button, I searched both here and SSRG, but came up with nothing useful. If I could just have that code, it would help me hack the S3K ROM to make Blue Knuckles a selectable character on the data select screen.
     
  7. Vangar

    Vangar

    Member
    In Sonic 3 & Knuckles collection for PC, if you use a hacking program (forgotten the name) you can select knuckles in Sonic 3 by itself and it works 100%
     
  8. LocalH

    LocalH

    roxoring your soxors Tech Member
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    00C4E2:0003 = ASCA-AAHC
    00C4F4:7003 = ASCA-BA9Y

    You'd probably want to disassemble a small snippet of code surrounding each of those bytes, and then look for the same code in S&K, and change the same bytes there.
     
  9. Robjoe

    Robjoe

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    Success! Blue Knuckles is now a selectable character in my hack. LocalH, thanks SO much for the codes I needed! I located the data, but the method I used was different. I added $20000 to those addresses in the codes, but I found that this data was EXACTLY like in S3. It even said 02 instead of 03. This data was nothing but uneeded garbage leftover from the lock-on. But I copied 02 and a bit of data before it, changed 02 to 03, and searched through the ROM. Sure enough, a location was found. I changed 03 to 04, and it worked!
    To access him via Patch/GG code, enter these in S3K:

    00D6E6:0004 = AXMA-AAHG Access Blue Knux while scrolling upwards through characters on file selction.
    00D6F8:7004 = AXMA-BA92 Access Blue Knux when scrolling down.

    The patch codes worked on my clean ROM. I converted them to GG via ESE.

    Now, if only I knew where to define what character slots to acess on the level select screen. Then Blue could be accessed there, too!
     
  10. LocalH

    LocalH

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    Well, it's quite well known that, in the lockon cases, the actual game logic is in the S&K cart, and the only use for the locked-on cart is for data, so I expected you to have to make the hack for the regular part of S&K.
     
  11. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    Well, those patch codes you made can help you a bit.

    Go to D6E6 and then go back 3 bytes. This should be the beginning of the instrucution that changes the character selection to Knux on the file select screen (move.w #$04, ($FFFFFD70).w... Though I may be wrong on the RAM address). I think if you replace that with a jump to some custom code that adds another selection to the array, it would work. It may be best to compare the SK code to the S3 code and apply changes as such.

    Ignore me if I'm wrong, though. =P
     
  12. esreveRPsychology

    esreveRPsychology

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    A few things I've noticed with those patch codes that kind of confuse me, I know it uses Knuckle's sprites and stats, and Sonic's palettes, but all the other effects seem to mix back and forth between Sonic and Tails. such as when acquiring an emerald or finishing a level it shows Tails' name, but during special stages it shows Sonic's sprites, and uses Sonic's name on the lives counter. What exactly causes that, and is it repairable?

    EDIT: another thing I just found is the boss on Angel Island Act 2 appears where its supposed to, but then goes flying off under the level.
     
  13. Robjoe

    Robjoe

    Member
    That's because the game thinks you're Sonic or Tails, but it loads up Knuckles' objects and such. Like with AIZ2's boss. You're up in Sonic and Tails' area and trigger their boss, but then it realizes he should be down in Knux's area. If you want to fix such bugs, it'd require some hacking. Not sure how difficult it would be, but I'm guessing pretty hard. One of the Techies might know how to do it, but I don't. I'm wanting to keep Blue Knuckles the way he is. He's neat to experiment with, and is a nice change-up from regular Knuckles.
     
  14. Quickman

    Quickman

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    omg porjcet
    I don't suppose you've tried going to character 05 and seeing what that is?
     
  15. Robjoe

    Robjoe

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    All empty slots are Blue Knuckles, sadly. I was hoping for like, a red Sonic where the game thinks you're Knuckles. But no, nothing else cool. However, if you enable all character slots on the data select screen, the game desparatly scrounges for graphics. In the patch codes, change the last two digits to FF to see what I mean. You might enjoy it if you like glitches. I've got plans for slot 05 though...
     
  16. Jigen

    Jigen

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    I'm sure most everyone is probably aware of this, but I wasn't until a few hours ago. When playing Sonic 3 I noticed that when the sign post is spinning at the end of an act, Knuckles appears on it. Though he is blue of course. I wonder, when Sonic 3 first came out how many people spotted that and thought Knuckles was a secret playable character or something.
     
  17. Dragonsbrethren

    Dragonsbrethren

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    I just noticed that myself the other day, can't believe I never saw it before. One must wonder how many sides that sign has...
     
  18. Gurluas2000

    Gurluas2000

    Iposatu the Demon Lord Member
    actually the blue knuckles is a totally playable character in my fangame... he is named Knickles...hes a clone of knux... that's why I asked stealth to add a blue knuckles in his s1 hack...but its pretty offtopic.

    anyway
    :boxing:
    I got a question related to sonic3 standalone and hacking...
    sonic-cult(what happended to them??)had some savestates where they found fbz and lavareef... now the stage select shows sandopolis and mushroom VALLEY
    any way to access them?

    and last... can someone make an ips patch so you can access fbz
    like you could access knux in s3 with the ips patch?
     
  19. Quickman

    Quickman

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    YOU ARE SO DAMN DENSE.

    Grow a brain and read Nemesis' guide.

    No. Do it yourself. It's already been reported if you'd've bothered to look around for it.
     
  20. Gurluas2000

    Gurluas2000

    Iposatu the Demon Lord Member
    geez... I just asked a few questions...
    and you didt told me what happended to the cult...


    anyway... il be shutting up for awhile... I got limited trials posts yo know...
     
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