Project Direction

Discussion in 'Project: Sonic Retro (Archive)' started by Tweaker, May 6, 2009.

  1. The Shad

    The Shad

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    <!--quoteo(post=308821:date=May 13 2009, 05:45 PM:name=Namagem)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namagem @ May 13 2009, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308821"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with everything Andlabs said. That's a reasonable ground I'm willing to stand on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Andlands said nearly everything I've already said and it took an admin threatening to nuke this before you people actually wanted to try and get this bitch going?

    Good god, we are fucked.
     
  2. RevFirst

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    <!--quoteo(post=308832:date=May 14 2009, 12:12 AM:name=The Shad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Shad @ May 14 2009, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308832"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Andlands said nearly everything I've already said and it took an admin threatening to nuke this before you people actually wanted to try and get this bitch going?

    Good god, we are fucked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Just proof that deadlines are almost always a good thing.

    Anyways, I've been lurking the hell out of this topic (and the later parts of Chimpo's version of this project) and now that I see <I>some</I> sign of progress, I'm happy.

    As for an artist, I'd like to contribute but I'm sure there are better here (I'd rather be some help on the side). Judge my underdeveloped junk for yourselves: <a href="http://www.deviantart.com/download/115336107/A_vision_of_Sonic_WIP_by_RevFirst.png" target="_blank">1</a>, <a href="http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs45/f/2009/133/d/5/Sonic_Vision_2_by_RevFirst.png" target="_blank">2</a>, <a href="http://fc07.deviantart.com/fs43/f/2009/133/b/5/Sonic_Vision_3_by_RevFirst.png" target="_blank">3</a>
     
  3. Banoon

    Banoon

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    I have an idea.

    Why not finish Sonic 2 HD, and then build this project around that...?
     
  4. The Shad

    The Shad

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    <!--quoteo(post=308856:date=May 13 2009, 07:30 PM:name=Banoon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Banoon @ May 13 2009, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308856"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have an idea.

    Why not finish Sonic 2 HD, and then build this project around that...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Are you serious? You want us to base this around a game that got haulted because of a PAUSE MENU?

    Sorry, no.
     
  5. Dr. Mecha

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    As far as Leaders goes, why don't we have one of the Mods/Admins create a poll so that we can VOTE FOR ONE ALREADY? All I see is secessions and nominations, and noone had already picked a leader. As for nominations, I nominate Treaker on account of experience with overall game design (as proven with Megamix).
     
  6. Ritz

    Ritz

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    <!--quoteo(post=308920:date=May 13 2009, 06:39 PM:name=Dr. Mecha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dr. Mecha @ May 13 2009, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308920"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for nominations, I nominate Treaker on account of experience with overall game design (as proven with Megamix).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You can't exactly vote for someone until they've volunteered for the job. I'm sure he'll consider it if you brown-nose harder, though!
     
  7. STHX

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    <!--quoteo(post=308784:date=May 13 2009, 11:00 PM:name=Sailu Baru)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sailu Baru @ May 13 2009, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308784"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that just telling what you want to do is insufficient. Tell what you CAN do and then we must etablish a complet list of the staff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I can do sprites. <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=12752&st=930" target="_blank">Characters</a> and <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=14284&st=60" target="_blank">Badniks</a> are my best. (scroll down, I have no idea how to link to a specific post without using a quote trick)
    <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=13683" target="_blank">I'm also good at boss concepts.</a>
    <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=15159&st=60&p=308684&#entry308684" target="_blank">I proposed a plan for the game and candidated for project leadership.</a>


    <!--quoteo(post=308775:date=May 13 2009, 10:19 PM:name=Ritz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ritz @ May 13 2009, 10:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308775"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's an idea: Of all the people in this thread discussing the palette, how many of you actually plan on doing artwork for the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I can take care of everything related to characters without a problem. My palette suggestion, considering E02 limits (256 colors), is 128, so we have half of it free for underwater palette.
    With that said, wasting too many colors on one thing is unneded. Sonic doesn't need more than 15 colors. Stages doesn't need more than 30 colors.
    E02 is the best solution. We have a programmer (jman) and we have artists (me, test-object, Rave and Matwek, if he is still interested).

    Do we agree on something? Yes.
    Sonic? He is in.
    Eggman? He is in.
    Gameplay? The one like the classic Sonic games.
    1st Zone? The usual tropical zone.

    We all agree on these things. Then, let's start from there.
     
  8. Andlabs

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    <!--quoteo(post=308967:date=May 14 2009, 04:48 AM:name=STHX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (STHX @ May 14 2009, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308967"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do we agree on something? Yes.
    Sonic? He is in.
    Eggman? He is in.
    Gameplay? The one like the classic Sonic games.
    1st Zone? The usual tropical zone.

    We all agree on these things. Then, let's start from there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is what we tried last time. This time it needs to be run a bit differently:<ul><li>Sonic: we only need an initial set of running, spinning, standing still (not waiting), launched off spring. Everything else can wait. We can't have them argue over stupid things like colors just yet. E02 gives us 256 colors, which would be enough for a simple test demo.</li><li>Robotnik: the Genesis games don't have too many Robotnik sprites: looking forward, running/pointing. Again, only initial discussion.</li><li>First Zone: Map and art should be separated. This time, contribute portions of the zone map, not just pieces that can be placed anywhere.</li></ul>
     
  9. STHX

    STHX

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    <!--quoteo(post=308976:date=May 14 2009, 12:47 PM:name=Andlabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andlabs @ May 14 2009, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308976"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is what we tried last time. This time it needs to be run a bit differently<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The situation was a bit different last time, but I agree with most of your points.
    I'm only going to add my take on some things first:

    <!--quoteo(post=308976:date=May 14 2009, 12:47 PM:name=Andlabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andlabs @ May 14 2009, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308976"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>Sonic: we only need an initial set of running, spinning, standing still (not waiting), launched off spring. Everything else can wait. We can't have them argue over stupid things like colors just yet. E02 gives us 256 colors, which would be enough for a simple test demo.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Agree. Those are the most used sprites. We only need to decide what style it must follow.
    Don't underastimate this part. I will repeat again: The style used for Sonic is the style used for the whole art of the game. It must be one of the first decisions. This, as you said, doesn't mean every frame must be finalized in 2 days.
    It may not be a bad idea to scrap Tails and Knuckles until we finished with Sonic, however.

    <!--quoteo(post=308976:date=May 14 2009, 12:47 PM:name=Andlabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andlabs @ May 14 2009, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308976"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>Robotnik: the Genesis games don't have too many Robotnik sprites: looking forward, running/pointing. Again, only initial discussion.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm telling you the truth. We probably don't need Robotnik for a first draft of tech demo. We only need a stage and a character, nothing more.
    I think it is better to put Robotnik, and his new sprites, if they'll be new, in the "to do after list"
    Every other enemy is secondary too at this point.

    <!--quoteo(post=308976:date=May 14 2009, 12:47 PM:name=Andlabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andlabs @ May 14 2009, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308976"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>First Zone: Map and art should be separated. This time, contribute portions of the zone map, not just pieces that can be placed anywhere.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Since we are only aiming for a tech demo, level maps doesn't matter at this point. However, since we need at least a little map to show, let's take a group of important chunks and let's redraw them with our art (which, however, needs to be decided).
    Unfortunately, if we take a look at the previous Zone 1 topic, it is clear we all have a different idea for the first zone. Maybe we will need to discuss what we exactly want from the 1st stage first.

    I'm going to give my take on how should be organized the project for this first target:
    First, the Sonic sprite caused a lot of troubles in the past, but it must be chosen one day. We may not focus on the full sheet, but we (at least we spriters) need to know what Sonic we need to draw. So we may need a bit of discussion on this. In a week, maximum 2, we decide how the Sonic sprite must be, and immediately after we start drawing the important frames.

    Second, we must decide how the first zone must be. Beach, green hill wannabe, something different, we have to know exactly what we must draw.

    Only this 2 things matters now.

    The project may be like this:

    Sonic sprite discussion (may be changed to main character sprites discussion after, to avoid opening new topics for every character)
    Sonic sprite sheet (opens as soon the sprite is decided. Closes when we finished enough frames)
    Zone 1 discussion (what the 1st zone must be, and what style it must follow)
    Zone 1 chunks (opens as soon as we decided, closes when we finished enough chunks)


    Both things will serve to decide our style for characters and enemies, and for the zones. When completed, jman will create a tech demo with them inside, so we will see a first glance of our game. After that, we can move on to complete them, or, depends on the situation, we can start to discuss other things.


    Since The Shad seems out for 3 days, only you and I are the candidates as of now. We want the same thing, and we have 2 main targets now. Why don't we both take the leader role for this first part of the project? One of us could focus on Sonic, while the other could focus on the Zone.
    I'm better with character art, so I may focus on the Sonic sprite. The first who finish will then move to help completing the other target.

    In my opinion, this is a good way to start the project. I would still like to hear what others say, in particular the ones who are willing to contribute.
    My suggestion for the official date for the project to restart anew, since starting all of sudden may leave some of us umprepared, is for the next Monday, the 18 if I'm not wrong. In this way the contributors can prepare something to show of for the first day.


    I would like to make a suggestion to the future contributors: play your favorite Sonic game in this week-end. Try to understand why you like it, and what makes it special. This could help to understand the style we want to give to our game.
     
  10. Sailu Baru

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    I'm entirely with you STHX! ^^ I'm agree with all things you have said.

    I just want to add some points : one minor and a major.

    <u>1) Minor point:</u>
    Play your favorite sonic games but don't forget Sonic and Sonic 2 Master System versions. They contain a lot of good ideas, and the harder gameplay of the second is amazing.

    <u>2) Mayor point:</u>
    Create a topic to elect a leader or a couple of leaders however
    <b>we must elect others leaders </b> (that the works will be direct and coordinate by the upper leaders) <b>for each needed tasks</b>.
    In this way each precised job will be supervised by an only skilled guy. So, all artists will be heeded, adviced or denied if needed. Too many works have been badly lead or lead for nothing until this day.
     
  11. nineko

    nineko

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    For what it's worth, I support STHX as project leader. Apparently Italy is taking over the Site Projects section... Vincent is doing a very good job with S2HD, Italians just do it better :3
     
  12. Polygon Jim

    Polygon Jim

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    All the bitches.
    Why are all you all more retarded than me?

    No one needs a Sonic sprite sheet right now.
    No one needs a Robotnik sprite sheet right now.
    no one needs level art right now.
    no one needs music right now.

    You make a game engine with basic test art until you have something to work with. Instead you all sit around going "Oh no! There's a misaligned pixel on Sonics ear! BAAAAAW".

    Have any of you ever even developed a single thing in your life? Game sequels, use the assets of the previous game for a while until they get a game going. You make an engine complete before you deal with music new sprites, ect. You make sure you have something viable to work with. What's the point of art, music, layouts without a game?

    This project is just going to die again, it's been going for what? Over a year? Where's even a simple proof of concept? The only people I've seen even do very much for this project are Chimpo, and jman. Instead of actually helping you complain about a pixel on a sprite that isn't even being used because you have no engine to put it in.

    All you're are going to do is run it into the ground over sprites. Get the fuck over it.

    No one gives a fuck if you don't like part of the sprite. If you want to change it you make a better one and make a poll, if people like it more, you go with it, and you don't change it again. You don't go "BAAAAW his spikes bounce to much!" Its been over a year and you can't even decide on a fucking Sonic sprite. How the hell are you ever going to get anywhere? Just let the project die, or find someone who actually knows what they're doing.


    The only other advice I have, is you don't want this all to be run by one person. You want a leader for different fields. You want someone who knows sprites very well to be leading the art, you want someone who knows music really well to be leading the music, and so on. You want people like this for quality control. You don't want them having to do all the work. You want them there, to stop people bitching over 1 small pixel. They need to have the final say in matters if this project is ever going to get anywhere.

    I'll just say lastly, I'd like to give a shot at running this, but I doubt anyone would want me as a project leader.
     
  13. muteKi

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    Well if I'm understanding this correctly we do have an engine, it's just that only 3-4 people, of varying interest in the project, have much experience using it.

    I know some would prefer to use the actual engine of the Sonic games, and design it for the system itself. I don't see any reason for it as other than the fact that more people know the 68K assembly syntax. (Please correct me if I'm wrong with these next points) E02 has a very low footprint and because it's native rather than an emulator can actually run <I>better</I> on older PCs than a Sonic game on a decent emulator, its engine is actually designed on that of the Sonic games rather than just being a hack of the others, and it has much better control of level tiles (going by 16x16 rather than 128x128). Only issue is that the scripting is proprietary.


    What I think I'd do is offer an ultimatum. I can whip up some relatively simple level layouts and get them scanned within a few days. Then, the proponents of each engine shall race off to see which one can use it to protoype the level better. The engine that gets a decent working rendition of the level first will be the one used, since we need something that people can work with quickly and easily. (One of the goals for this project, I feel, should be managing to get in-engine mock-ups quickly, so that the project doesn't stagnate and so that we can test things quickly.)
     
  14. Scarred Sun

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    Welp, this.
    Tick. Tock.

    There's now 24 hours before we pull the plug on this miserable pile of shit, and there's still nothing in here that is making me remotely reconsider my position on this.

    <b>IF YOU WANT THIS THING TO STAY ALIVE READ THIS AND DO THIS FOR FUCK'S SAKE</b>

    I want, by 10 a.m. CST Friday morning, a proposal that:

    - Does not pussyfoot "well, I'll nominate myself if anyone want me waaaaa"; I need "I will take charge, and this is my plan for leadership by myself or with others"
    - Does not pussyfoot "well, music palette target blah blah"; I need "This is my vision and I will have the constitution to help mold it in my image"
    - Is clear about the nature of accepting work and criticism (and there better be a different system than what the last three iterations of this project used)
    - Is either willing to work with and listen to jman or can provide their own programming skills themselves or through another source that is up to speed
    - Can submit a clear proposal of all of the above

    God, this isn't hard, folks. Get some tenacity.
     
  15. Stealth

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    Sonic Mania, HCGE, Sonic Megamix, SonED2, [...]
    <!--quoteo(post=308997:date=May 14 2009, 06:31 AM:name=muteKi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (muteKi @ May 14 2009, 06:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308997"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then, the proponents of each engine shall race off to see which one can use it to protoype the level better<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soned2e02.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2794/soned2e02.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
    <a href="http://g.imageshack.us/img218/soned2e02.gif/1/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/soned2e02.gif/1/w664.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
     
  16. jman2050

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    <!--quoteo(post=309002:date=May 14 2009, 09:48 AM:name=Stealth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stealth @ May 14 2009, 09:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=309002"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=308997:date=May 14 2009, 06:31 AM:name=muteKi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (muteKi @ May 14 2009, 06:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308997"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then, the proponents of each engine shall race off to see which one can use it to protoype the level better<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soned2e02.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2794/soned2e02.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
    <a href="http://g.imageshack.us/img218/soned2e02.gif/1/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/soned2e02.gif/1/w664.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'll be honest, I completely forgot about that option.
     
  17. Matwek

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    <!--quoteo(post=308999:date=May 14 2009, 02:38 PM:name=Scarred Sun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarred Sun @ May 14 2009, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308999"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want, by 10 a.m. CST Friday morning, a proposal:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is the only sure fire way of getting things done. Anyone who wants to lead should produce a project proposal, then we pick the best one. Not only does it help outline what needs to be done but also the effort involved should show if you're capable enough and dedicated.


    From the point of view of an artists of sorts I find it hard to do any pixel art as everything is all over the place.
    I've been working on another project recently and I've got far more done for them simply because of their estabilshed structure.

    <I>Idea is proposed - Artist creates various concept art - Best one picked - Pixel artist create the object/sprite/tile (with a little creative alteration).</I>

    It works for all stages of the project as it provides a rapid sucsession of short-term goals, then everything is put together later. At the moment what we have here is everyone trying to work on everything, people should just relax a bit, decide on how they want to contribuite, then just focus on that and ignore everything else (Its not like a costume designer has any say in the script of the film they're working on)
     
  18. Spanner

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    <!--quoteo(post=309002:date=May 14 2009, 02:48 PM:name=Stealth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stealth @ May 14 2009, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=309002"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=308997:date=May 14 2009, 06:31 AM:name=muteKi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (muteKi @ May 14 2009, 06:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308997"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then, the proponents of each engine shall race off to see which one can use it to protoype the level better<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soned2e02.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2794/soned2e02.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Interesting. I guess that people could work on the art in SonED using a disassembly then export to E02 for further stuff?
    And about what I said earlier, E02's character object seemed to be slow though jman's video showed me that this would be the better option to use.
     
  19. Andlabs

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    Writing my own MD/Genesis sound driver :D
    <!--quoteo(post=308999:date=May 14 2009, 09:38 AM:name=Scarred Sun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarred Sun @ May 14 2009, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308999"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Does not pussyfoot "well, I'll nominate myself if anyone want me waaaaa"; I need "I will take charge, and this is my plan for leadership by myself or with others"
    - Does not pussyfoot "well, music palette target blah blah"; I need "This is my vision and I will have the constitution to help mold it in my image"
    - Is clear about the nature of accepting work and criticism (and there better be a different system than what the last three iterations of this project used)
    - Is either willing to work with and listen to jman or can provide their own programming skills themselves or through another source that is up to speed
    - Can submit a clear proposal of all of the above<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Okay, ready!

    I will be happy to lead this project. I will bring a few people in with me to help run the whole project. The Shad and STHX seem like good choices. I will also bring in people to head different divisions.

    All of my posts in this topic so far have outlined my image for the project. This is the image that Sonic 1, 2, 3, and & Knuckles have all used, and it only seems best for a project like Project: Sonic <b><I><u>Retro</u></I></b>. Violators will be rejected.

    Here is how contribution will work.
    <ol type='1'><li>You will post your contribution.</li><li>The other people will <b><I><u>NOT</u></I></b> criticize SPECIFIC DETAILS of it; just whether or not it is a good idea.</li><li>On a set date I will stop accepting ideas and we will sift through the right ones.</li><li>After all the right ideas are put in place, details can be corrected.</li></ol>
    I don't mind working with jman; he can lead the Programming Division. I could also learn E02 myself and help jman.

    So there!
     
  20. Dr. Mecha

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    Dallas, TX
    3d Models
    Just to help you guys out, here's a <a href="http://www-personal.engin.umd.umich.edu/~bmaxim/cis488/BaldwinGameDesignDocumentTemplate.doc" target="_blank">template</a> I found that will help keep this project organized. Though I highly doubt that Project Retro will be saved after what could be months of absolutely no progress at all.