Projared reviews Sonic Adventure 2

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Saidian, Apr 19, 2015.

  1. Saidian

    Saidian

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgG--74XExY

    It's a discussion that probably crops up every day on a Sonic/Sega forum but this was still a pretty awesome video. Projared brings up the flaws while also being hilarious. He also reminds us of the sole reason we still play the game...

    Well worth 25 minutes of your time

    I love his channel, even though he started losing his Nuzlockes on purpose :v:
     
  2. Shadic

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    He's not wrong, for the most part.

    The Sonic/Shadow stages themselves are a bit overrated imo, but oh well. I guess the engine is just smoother to me or something, since despite SA1 having (imo) better music, often better stages, a neat overworld, Tails, better emerald hunting, better story, AND E102 > Tails/Eggman, I still put significantly more time into SA2:B.

    Alas.
     
  3. Jason

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    Personally, I've grown to hate SA2, mainly because of the younger section of the fan base that worships it. It's marginally worse than SA1, because even though I hated the hub world (which is why I bought my first Prima guide out of frustration), SA2's Sonic levels were more linear and less interesting.

    But more than anything, the music is my least favorite of the Adventure era. There's a lot less variation in styles between levels, and I'm sick of Escape from the City and Live & Learn. They're not that great.

    And as for the Chao Garden, count me as one of the people who hated it. He talks about how the treasure hunting stages were the antithesis of Sonic? Is argue that these virtual pets are more antithetical. At least I feel like I'm doing something with Knuckles. The Chao are just... there, eating up my rings and drives to a purpose I never cared about. It should definitely be a mobile game by now for those people who love it, though. Even keep the meta going by tying items to achievements in other Sega mobile titles. But Sega doesn't have much in the way of sense these days.

    Without fail, when I ask anyone born after 1995, they say their favorite Sonic game is SA2. Nostalgia is a powerful thing (hell, it's a good chunk of why we're here), but sometimes I wish that Sonic Advance was the big introduction to franchise for Nintendo kids of a certain age and not this.
     
  4. + - *flips laptop*  

    Seriously? This monotony again?
     
  5. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

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    I do believe that the characters themselves handle well. Sonic and Shadow both have a degree of control both at low and high speeds that always feel solid, but the level designs and camera can more often than not work against the player causing almost all of the problems. Were it not for the redundant summersault and unpredictable rail jumping mechanic, I would say the controls themselves are perfect.

    I may be in the minority that SA2's Emerald Hunting stages never bothered me all that much besides the awful camera. I even liked Aquatic Mine because I enjoyed exploring the optional areas. The radar only sensing one shard at a time was definitely a poor design decision to be sure, but at least the beeping wasn't nearly as obnoxious as SA1's.

    The shooter stages have a solid mechanic, but it was nowhere near polished enough to have been included in the game. It was forgivable in SA1's Gamma stages because the levels were shorter and the levels themselves were designed much more like a shooting gallery. But SA2's were poorly executed and the biggest issue with the game.

    The speed/hunting styles were pretty close to being completely successful, but lack of overall mechanical refinement and some really spotty level design really held it back. I feel like SA2 was 6 months away from being a really great game. As-is, it's mediocre.

    And yes, the cutscenes are all completely inexcusable. By 2001 there was no excuse for Sonic Team failing as badly as they did in the sound mixing, animating and choreography.
     
  6. Thank you for putting into words exactly what I have always thought about the game. Glad to see I'm not the only one that feels this way. In fact only thing I like about SA2 is the knuckles space stage song.

    It's mostly the controls & camera that kill it for me. Between this and SA1, I can't go 5 minutes through it without wanting to shut the game off. Banjno Kazooie, Spyro The Dragon, Super Mario 64, and even Sonic R has better controls & cameras than Sonic Adventure 1 & 2.
     
  7. TimmiT

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    I pretty much agree with everything ProJared says in his review. The Sonic/Shadow levels are great, the rest not so much. I can still somewhat enjoy the game though because of nostalgia though.

    As for Chao Garden, I don't really like it. But that's more because it's not for me than it being badly designed I think.
     
  8. Skyler

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    This review says pretty much what I (and a lot of us) have been saying for years.
     
  9. TimmiT

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    We sure have. I mean, ProJared's does point out some different problems and focuses more on specific levels, but the conclusion is the same: Sonic/Shadow levels and Chao Garden are the only good parts of the game.
     
  10. SF94

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    I think he's totally right. I still love SA2 for those parts that are... well, "OK", but having replayed it once I got it on Steam... I almost didn't finish it. I played it several times over on the Dreamcast and GameCube. It was so boring playing anyone other than Sonic or Shadow, and Shadow only has like, what, 3 or 4 stages? By contrast, I enjoyed playing everyone but Big in SA1, and even Big's stages were still interesting. All of his stages take place in other characters' stages, but with expanded explorable areas that couldn't be accessed by anyone else. Just have a look at Ice Cap or Emerald Coast.

    On the tangent of SA1, I sorta want to see him take a stab at it; whether it be the original or DX. Gameplay-wise it's all the same, so it doesn't matter which. The problem is the re-release 360/PS3/Steam versions though. For the sake of ease and consistent quality, it would have to either be the Dreamcast or GameCube versions.

    Before the video went live though, it occurred to me that most of the stages in SA2 are hallways/roads/half pipes. SA1's level design was way more open-ended (or at least, disguised much better), and I guess that sorta re-enforces my undying love for SA1. I liked the Chao a lot better in SA2 than SA1 though. I'd just shoot up the place as Gamma in SA1. It was much improved in DX, but by time I got that (on PC--I got a GameCube way later) I already burned myself out when it comes to Chao. Probably why I had so much trouble getting through SA2 on Steam again.

    Honestly, I kind of like to think of SA2 as an excuse to just make a multiplayer Sonic Adventure. As such, Shadow is just a cool skin for when Sonic has been chosen already. =P

    also screw you crazy gadget is best level

    I really don't think this is a fair comparison. Those games nearly never reach the same speeds, and when they do, they're in much more controlled environments--e.g specially designed paths (Spyro) or slides (SM64, although admittedly I haven't played the whole thing). I suppose you could argue all of SA1 and SA2 are controlled environments, but they don't limit your range of control like the examples I gave (which I personally find to be a good thing).

    Edit: And to clarify, I'm trying to make the point that the camera is "better" in those games because the player is under full control at all times since the game is slow enough that it isn't an absolute nightmare to deal with.

    On the note of the camera, I'd argue taking away control of the camera is effectively a requirement for games of these speeds. This is especially the case in SA2 over SA1, where there's a much larger emphasis on speed. Consequently, you have no control over your camera unless you're at a complete stand-still, whereas SA1 was much more lenient--allowing you to rotate as you ran, and even override the stage camera by holding both triggers. Ever wonder why you could only pan your camera in Unleashed (unless you were in a hub, where camera rotation is a must), and why that was completely omitted from Generations?

    I'd bet the camera systems of any of those games would break down much like free cam does in SADX at the same speeds as SADX.

    Edit: I can never make a post without editing it hundreds of times, can I?
     
  11. This, and how Sega 'should make Sonic Adventure 3'. The only way to make a decent 3D Sonic game is to copy the adventure series apparently :rolleyes:
     
  12. Felik

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    When I saw that video I immediately thought that he's just gonna bash SA2, just like he bashed Sonic Boom when he was making his "worst games of 2014" list even though he stated that he's not gonna put movie/cartoon tie-in games on that list.
    But surprisingly he's opinion on the game is honest with no "Sonic was never good" or "Sonic should just die" bullshit.
     
  13. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    Yeah, it seems like he's willing to give Sonic games a fair shot at least. He also gave Sonic Generations a try on a live stream and he seemed to like it.

    Also, about Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric being a cartoon tie-in: it kinda isn't. There's a lot of stuff that indicates that the game was in production before the cartoon, so the cartoon is more of a tie-in to the game than the other way around.
     
  14. Saidian

    Saidian

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    I count myself as one of those who did actually play more Chao Garden than anything else once I completed the Last Story, only venturing outside City Escape and a couple other stages to get the required animals for the 'Immortal Chao'
    .....Then the editor for the PC version came out and I just stopped altogether, temptation was too much ><

    Going back to Projared and Sonic Boom, his one minute review pretty much makes it unnecessary to watch any full length one including his own
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffqe2qIfcOQ
     
  15. Well after actually watching the video and not continuing to look at this thread based off of my earlier presumptions (see above post) -
    I agree with him 100 percent. A majority of this game is honestly monotonous bullshit that we force ourselves to go through, whilst enjoying the tiny bits that are Sonic/Shadow. I also do love his statement at the end because it's not one that ever crossed my mind in these past 8 years (although it was very apparent because I did it the whole fucking time) was that I always went back to the Sonic/Shadow stages and the chao garden. I never went back to the other stages. I've never put SA2 on such a high pedestal that a majority of the fanbase does because again, the game is no where near as good as anyone says it is. It is, as a majority, garbage except for Sonic, Shadow, and the chao garden. Hooray for voices of reason. :v:
     
  16. Clownacy

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    I'm still trying to figure out what he meant during his look at City Escape. Speed makes up for lack of good gameplay or platforming in general? He points out some bad areas of the stage, and follows it up with 'it's okay because Sonic/speed'.
     
  17. The main thing that put me off buying SA2 when it came out was that it seemed Sega was trying too hard to make Sonic 'cool' - and it just came off as other try hards of the era like Bubsy etc... BAM! Sonic snowboards (!?) from a helicopter! CRASH Sonic gets chased by a truck (wtf humans)!

    All seemed a bit cheesy for me, I remember it turned me off massively at the time.
     
  18. Shadic

    Shadic

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    I think he gives it a general design pass just because it's mostly fun, and a first level doesn't need to be too crazy/exploratory in terms of design. I mean hell, the first level gives you the following:
    • "Snow"boarding
    • Ramps/Stunts
    • Rail grinding
    • Massive loop/wall run
    • Chased by a massive truck
    That's a lot of nifty elements/level gimmicks all introduced in a short amount of time. Before we were all jaded and critical, the stage was probably more entertaining than not for most of us.

    Also just wanna say, fuck the people who thought Sonic's ground-bounce should be on the same button as his ring dash. :colbert:
     
  19. Covarr

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    As it's a first stage, and the speed isn't all it has to offer, there is some truth to that. Speed is exhilarating, and fun as hell as long as it's mixed with other bits. If you look at the progression of some of the better games in the series (not 1 or CD), you'll see they move gradually from free speed in the early stages to earned speed in the later ones. Angel Island adds in some platforming to mix things up, and to make the speedy bits seem faster in comparison, but for most of the stage, it's easy to go fast with little skill or effort. This is even truer of Emerald Hill Zone. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the ends of those games give you Sky Sanctuary and Wing Fortress. It is plenty possible to go fast in those levels, but you have to be much better at the game to do so.

    That's something that City Escape gets pretty much right. There are segments where you need to platform, but they don't form the majority of the stage. Skill allows you to maintain speed even in those bits, and to find shortcuts in the already-fast sections, but it's freely available. This is as a first stage in a Sonic game should be. And if you look at the progression of the Sonic stages throughout the game, they do get harder, they do start to make speed less of a given and more of a reward, but they always leave that option. The most important thing that City Escape gets right is that it doesn't conflate "go fast the whole time" with "hold right to win". Even when you are going fast, you've gotta do other stuff to progress the level. You've gotta turn corners, jump platforms, climb stairs, defeat enemies, swing on those bar things, and make a couple of choices. Yeah, it's fast the whole time, but it still manages to have variety. If you can maintain that variety, the speed doesn't start to feel stale or shallow.

    Yeah, this game is nowhere near perfect. 2/3 of it is pretty bad, and even the remaining third has some flaws. In spite of that, I do think it's fair to say that City Escape is one of the best stages in the entire franchise. It's just the right amount of challenge for a first stage, shows off some of the game's new features early on, helps the player get a grip on the controls (for example, it has you do homing attack in a safe area, before you do it over more treacherous jumps later in the game)... It sets everything up, and does a good job at it. What problems it does have are (except for the truck segment) problems inherent to the game itself, and not just with the stage.
     
  20. Jen

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    Honestly, I pretty much agree with that video in its entirety.

    Sonic and Shadow's levels, along with the Chao Gardens, are literally the only things I look back on fondly from SA2. Most of it was pretty bad, let's be honest here - even though I genuinely loved it all when I first played it (on my 14th birthday, July 2001, a month after release). It made me grin to see all the crap getting called out in that video, I'm getting sick of people worshipping this game as if it's the best Sonic game in existence - like Projared rightly said, people bitch and moan about the Werehog and stuff like that in the later titles, but somehow the Tails/Robotnik and Knuckles/Rouge levels are completely fine in SA2? Ok then.

    Also, the comment about not playing as Sonic's "stupid friends" - yes, yes, and yes again. The alternate characters in Sonic 3 & Knuckles were amazing because the fundamental gameplay style remained the same regardless of which character you chose to play as, but because of their own unique abilities enabling them to access different paths through the stages, it makes you actually want to play as them sometimes rather than sticking with Sonic constantly. Because it still plays like a SONIC game no matter who you choose - high-speed platforming, none of this "let's shoot things" or "let's hunt for things" or whatever.

    Would it be contradictory, then, to say this - "I fucking love the Chao"? Probably; but they're absolutely bloody adorable, they're fun to raise, and I'm just a total sucker for shit like that, sorry guys =P Plus, it gives incentive to replay the decent levels again, as Projared rightly said in his video - and, unless you're going after all the emblems, they're completely optional (unlike the "stupid friends" levels which are obviously required in order to complete the story and to access all of the "good" levels). The original Sonic Adventure was much better in this regard because each individual character had their own story, so you technically don't have to arse around with fishing and whatever else if you really don't want to - sure, you can't fully complete the game that way, but at least you can access all of Sonic's levels without having to plod through the other nonsense first. If you do want to complete the game but you're getting tired of a certain character, it gives you the option to pick up another one instead - that's how I first completed SA1, by flitting between the different gameplay styles when, for example, the fishing started to grate on me. It doesn't give you a roadblock like SA2 does if, for example, you're stuck at Death Chamber on the Hero story and Mad Space on the Dark story at the same time (which I'm fairly certain happened to me on my first playthough, holy shit...).

    The part of the video where Projared showed all those Youtube comments about "WE WANT SA3!!11!!!" literally made me cringe - people need to stop with this now. For the most part, the games don't hold up very well anymore, it's mainly nostalgia talking. And besides, look at what happened when SEGA had the fucking genius idea of making a "Sonic 4" - it was a massive letdown for many reasons, which I seriously think would be the case if they were ever stupid enough to cave-in to the demands of a certain section of the fanbase and actually make SA3...