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Power the Next Level - Sega IP Revival Initiative

Discussion in 'General Sega Discussion' started by Jason, Dec 8, 2023.

  1. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    I'm really curious as to why the new JSR doesn't use cel-shading. That's kinda what made the original so iconic and revolutionary. At a glance it kinda looks like cel-shading, but the footage clearly shows gradients ala Wind Waker HD.

    Also, the cynical asshole in me thinks they're only doing this because their arcade and pachinko businesses are drying up and they have to go all-in on actual console video games now.
     
  2. Snub-n0zeMunkey

    Snub-n0zeMunkey

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    The new JSR definitely is cel-shaded, but this probably is a Wind Waker HD situation where the overuse of bloom goes against the intended artstyle and creates more apparent gradients. Gives everything a more plastic look.
    upload_2023-12-9_18-56-51.jpeg
    In the new JSR footage it's most noticeable in the environment, the shadows look very soft in comparison to the hard shadows of the originals.
    upload_2023-12-9_19-1-31.png
    But I think the leaked footage from a few months ago looks SO much better:
    upload_2023-12-9_19-3-35.jpeg
    upload_2023-12-9_19-4-0.png
    I'm excited to see how they polish this up because the footage they showed off officially basically screamed "work in progress" lol

    The fact that most of the original staff and artists are returning for this is good news to me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2023
  3. NiktheGreek

    NiktheGreek

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    I welcome all of these announcements and I'm hopeful that at least some of them will live up to our expectations. Disclaimer out of the way, I've got to say that while Sega may be bringing back some Dreamcast-era games, I'm not seeing the same energy. Sega during the Dreamcast era was defined by plenty of new series and a shared desire not to make loads of sequels, and a nostalgia drive doesn't really feel like it carries that spirit of innovation.
     
  4. Blue Blood

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    The new JSR is cel-shaded and so is WWHD. But this is the year 2023 and technology has advanced a hell of a lot in the last two decades. The new JSR still has cel-shading, whilst also sporting a modern, contemporary look that takes advantage of modern hardware to produce something that doesn't look outdated. High poly counts, more lighting and particle effects, bloom etc. None of the bright colours or outlandish designs of the previous games have been sacrificed. As much as I love the original games and still can't wait to play BRC (I'm waiting for physical), those games look retro. Even Wind Waker looks retro.

    In my opinion, the visuals of the new JSR look like a pretty natural evolution of the older games.
     
  5. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    You'll never get that "Dreamcast energy" unless Sega go back into the hardware business. Back then they were forced to make games of every concievable genre to plug up gaps in the third-party lineup, and it had to be the best of the best.

    This is just "hey remember this thing??". Although it's a double edged sword, because the answer is "yes, and we have high expectations".
     
  6. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    Yeah the new game is absolutely using cel shading techniques. Are you specifically referring to the thick black outlines?
     
  7. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    I'm not an artist, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you know what cel-shading is.

    If I look up the definition of toon shaded lighting, it's when colors are averaged out into solid blocks rather than having smooth gradients, where you only have a few distinct shades. There should be an absence of gradient shading; there should only be one shade in light and one shade in darkness. Otherwise, the lighting literally isn't cel-shading, it's only the simple distinct colors that give that vibe in the footage. But colors are not what define cel-shading; you can have a game be entirely in black & white and still use toon shading.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2023
  8. charcoal

    charcoal

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    JSR seems to be using cel shading in a similar way to Breath of the Wild, in that all the character models use pure cel shading but the environments use a mix of soft and cel shaders. I think it looks neat personally but I can understand not liking it, although to say it doesn't use cel shading altogether would be incorrect.
     
  9. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    If you want to get technical, ask @Cooljerk. They can probably go in depth. I don't know what to tell you since you seem to have made up your mind.
     
  10. Blue Blood

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    I don't think you know what cel-shading is either.

    Cel-shading can be binary as in your description, or there can be several bands of colour and the transition between them can also be softened. The main take away with cel shading is that you have clearly defined lighting bands. And the new JSR appears to use several bands for characters and objects, whilst the environments are using softer lighting. WWHD softens the transitions between bands, and the addition of bloom of top of the bands alters the look further. But it's still cel-shaded.

    Your question would be more accurate if it was "why isn't the new JSR using the same kind of cel-shading as the old games?". It's objectively still cel-shaded, in the same way that Sonic Mania and the original NES Super Mario Bros both use pixel art. And the answer should then be obvious too; it's an evolution of the same techniques, and one of many possible outcomes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2023
  11. Snub-n0zeMunkey

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    Gradients aren't forbidden in cel-shading, the idea is to make it less apparent. New JSR still has two-tone shading but now it also has rim lighting and specular highlights.
    [​IMG]
    I made this image by picking the colours directly from Professor K's shirt. The circle on the left is new JSR's approach to cel-shading and the circle on the right is how I think it would've looked in the original JSR. You can see that there's still two-tone shading and a heavy distinction between light and dark areas. The gradient is hardly even obvious in the actual trailer lol.

    These are both cel-shaded, just different takes on what cel-shading can do :P
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2023
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  12. That is slightly condescending. I'm not seeing the large detailed and well animated sprites, that others are seeing in the Shinobi trailer myself, but we all have different takes. I do agree with you about Golden Axe. I am very impressed that SEGA is making a big budget 3D game with multiplayer and how just how good it looks too

    The only letdowns of the trailers were the poor quality of the feed and the silly SEGA chant at the end, which was crap in the 90's never mind now.
     
  13. Chimes

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    You take that back, the 3D Blast Sega scream was amazing!
     
  14. Battons

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    I was never that into JSR, only really cared about it for the music. Golden Axe looks... interesting? I can't tell if its gonna be a 3D beat em up or not, but after beast rider I am very skeptical. Streets of Rage is pretty well known by now even outside of Sega circles, so I figured it was only a matter of time till Sega starts pushing it hard, the audience is there.
    I also don't care much for Crazy Taxi but i'm glad that they are at least doing something with it. Lastly holy cow that Shinobi game looks gorgeous. I don't want to overhype the series too much but Revenge and shinobi 3DS were fantastic games, while 3 is one of my favorite games of all time. I absolutely cannot wait to get my hands on it.
    Also... Flash game? Huh? You see that when you look at this?
    shinobi 4.JPG
    Let me remind you what flash games looked like then.
    unnamed.jpg
     
  15. Chimes

    Chimes

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    The Flash comparison has got my brain wracking its head. Fancy Pants isn't quite the look.
    Really the only Flash game that looks like that is William and Sly, but I digress...

    [​IMG]
     
  16. I never liked it back it the day , but it was a nice touch and SEGA showing they remember their past.

    It really looks like both Crazy Taxi and Golden Axe will support multi player . Crazy Taxi could be insane with loads of players fight over fares in online multiplayer
     
  17. biggestsonicfan

    biggestsonicfan

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    I can't stop thinking about this. It just don't add up that Sega seems to be taking a risk on this suddenly. Sonic is their safety net while the Yakuza franchise has grown a lot, but it's really hard to pinpoint why Sega made this move. Was it because of the dust finally settling from the Rovio acquisition? While I understand fans have been asking for these series to return for a long time now, they truly are the vocal minority compared to what brings the flow of income to the company.

    Anyone care to expand on my thoughts here? Am I alone or wrong in thinking like this?
     
  18. Jason

    Jason

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    They have pachinko, money is of little object to the company as a whole. Purely from the game division perspective, They have Sonic, Yakuza, and Persona to bring in not only commercial, but in Sonic's case critical success likely with Mania doing so much to remind people 90s Sega is good Sega. Socials have comments on every post saying "bring back ____." The surveys they did asked which franchises from Sega people liked. The research was done, and I guess they must feel in good enough shape to give us olds the games we miss.
     
  19. Black Squirrel

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    The (maybe?) subtle thing in that press release is that it's promoting Sega's position as number one publisher according to Metacritic. If they're more interested in that metric than units sold, maybe you release products that make people happy. Alternatively, they want to make more films.

    But the fact they're willing to announce five games at once suggests they're probably low budget affairs. And if they're whoring IPs around to smaller studios, it's even less of a risk.
     
  20. Trippled

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    Don't lump in Pachinko with arcade games! Yeah there is crane games, medal games (simulating gambling) but Sega was making real ass arcade games for a loooooooooooong time, moreso after they died in the West.
    If the games are made in-house, there is good chance that many arcade game staff is involved in making these games, because their arcade line-up is extremely sparse in Japan. Currently they are only updating Eiketsu Taisen and Initial D, and two of their music games.
    This is not new. Experienced arcade staff was always the root of Sega's way of making games, for example, Panzer Dragoon would have not been possible without the staff that made the rail shooter Rail Chase.

    A good video below that talks about situation inside Sega of Japan and how they evolved on eyeing the global market and console and arcade teams merging



    Outsourcing is riskier. You are adding more people on your payroll. Why not have the over 1000 employees in-house make the games? Of course, Shinobi is 100% not made in-house, it looks to be made by Lizardcube.