Discussion in 'Project: Sonic Retro (Archive)' started by Chimpo, Jan 22, 2009.
YES, thank you Chimpo. I'm also an artist so I'll try to contribute and lend some C+C now and then.
Party really died...
I didn't say it
I hoped this moment would never come, but it seems there is nothing to do now.
Never like now, this project is on the verge of death. I always supported this project since the first days, just as many others, and to me it just feels like a waste of talents to kill it now.
But as of today, the last hope is going out.
Still, part of me wants to see this project alive, so I'll try one last effort, and I'll try my best to not be a dick and to express a valid point.
First of all, I'm sorry Chimpo, and I'm sorry Tweaker (since you always tried to defend him), but stop pretending this isn't your fault (and more important, stop pretending this is our fault).
Being the leader is something you underastimated. Every word you say, every thing you do, has an impact on the whole project, being it positive or negative.
I'll quote you from another topic:
What you find wrong in this sentence?
First, if you have troubles with your real life, and this problems do not allow you to contribute in any way for months (because the last time you posted was the 1st of April, and now it is May, and because the last time you actually posted something useful it was more than a month ago), then maybe it is time you give your role to someone else.
Oh, yeah, this is a "community project" right? So, as you said:
We all must do something, right?
And here comes the second problem over that sentence:
Why should we help you? Each one of us has a real life. Some, like me, must study their way out of the college, others have a job. Not all of us have tons of free time. So, the most important thing the leader must do is to stimulate us in helping the project, give us a reason to use our free time for the project. And, quite frankly, calling us whiny kids doesn't help. However, the thing that you missed since the beginning is that you, as a leader, must do most of the job.
This part sounds very hypocrite, but it is true. Is the leader's work the one which stimulate others to help. I wanted to avoid putting Sonic 2 HD in here, because I feel these are 2 different projects, but, think at the beginning: How many months passed before someone else than Vincent started doing something for that project? And as of today, who is still doing most of the job (especially the most important thing: Sonic's Sprite Sheet)? Other members were moved into helping by Vincent's awesome work. But in this project you, Chimpo, just posted a few frames, or just posted a few pics, and then pretended that we must do most of the work.
Now, you would had right if no one actually did something. But things aren't like this. Many members (mostly the ones who supported the project since the beginning) posted many things lately, being it minor or not. So why we suddenly stopped?
Again, it is your fault. You are stubborn, everyone here knows it, and it is hard to make you change your mind. So dammit say something! How could we know if what we are posting is good if you don't tell us? You're the leader, and so the final decision is always yours! You accepted that horrible sprite, but after that a lot of work was completely ignored by you!
I had to say this, but know I'll post some actual examples:
During the last month, in the Sonic sheet topic, I posted a complete Look Up animation. It is a very minor work, and it had some problems (which I solved in the second version posted in the following page), but they are still additional frames no one else did. But it doesn't matter if I like them or not, just like it doesn't matter if others hate it or not, you must tell me what you think. Is it good? Is it shit? What are its problems? What are its good points? How do you expect me to improve it if you don't say a thing?
But that animation is still something not very important. However, in the same topic, OrdosAlpha posted a different palette. The frames were not altered, and everyone prefer the new palette over the old one. Sure, it is a bit to dark, but nothing that can't be corrected in a few minutes. So? Do you approve the changes? Do you like the new palette? Tell us, because we must know what palette to use for the following frames! It doesn't matter how much we like it, you have the final word.
Let's continue with the topics. In the badniks topic were posted at least different 15 badniks. Some of them are cool, other not much. Still, have you ever bothered to give us directions on the type of Badniks we must create? What badnik must be turned into a sprite? What badnik must be scrapped? Tell us!
The level design topic: test-object posted a mock-up of a possible beach zone. A bit too cartoony for me, but you have the final word, so... SO POST! What do you think of it? What parts are good? What parts seems out of place? How is the palette? How do you think test-object must continue if you don't say anything?
Both Andlabs, Mr. Mash and ZFG posted a music track for the game. Have you, since you are the leader and the decision is always yours, bored into even listening them? Are they good? Are they bad? An instrument is wrong? The last part must be changed? If you don't tell us nothing then don't be surprised no one does anything.
I said this once, and I'll say this again. Don't. Ignore. Us.
You turned this project into "Chimpo Makes A Sonic Game", using art that has nothing to do with classic Sonic just because you like it. This wasn't what we originally planned, but since hope is always the last thing that dies, we continued to help. You assumed a completely dictatorship role over the project, and stated we had to work over specific things.
We worked on those things.
Now tell us if those things will be used!
Now tell us what we have to do next!
But you haven't. Instead, you occasionally insulted other members (like when you called all the work of the Sonic 4 forum, work you never saw since most of it was never reposted here, shit, for absolutely no reason. Remember what I said in the beginning, that every word you say has an impact? Then why anyone who worked on that forum, me included, should help you and this project if you think our work is shit), made various post were you accused us of the lack of work, posted a pair of frames and then pretended us must do all the work.
The Pulse said:
To bad that Chimpo gave us directions for a week, then we were leaved to ourself, of course without a clear idea of what to do next. The perfect example is the first Zone. Each one of us has a different 1st zone in mind. Of course, if this happens there are no hopes we will ever reach a conclusion.
Of course, it may happen that a leader has a bad period, that's why multiple leaders are chosen. But, guess what, Veemon, the other "leader" (how could someone who did absolutely nothing for the project be granted leader status is beyond my thinking) was last seen the 10th March 2009 - 11:13 AM. She leaved the forum? She has troubles with her life? Okay, fine, she has her own problems.
But you are here every day! And it takes a second to comment something!
See, the mere fact that you still haven't said anything on what is happening today clearly shows that you don't care anymore of this project.
And if you don't care, why we should?
But now it is too late. Maybe I should have posted this sooner, but part of me knew this would have been ignored.
The project is not dead yet, but soon it will be.
Still, call me a dreamer, I still think this project can be saved. Because I have faith in the members of this forum and on their skills. But if I'm really the only one, then probably nothing can be done.
STHX. I love you.
I tried to revive this a project a few days before by posting in almost every topic. The ones where I'm not really at home at (music dep.), I tried to think up something just to keep that part alive. Result, a whopping 1 reply. Thank you, Phos.
Chimpo. You're a good leader. Believe me, you are. You fixed the incoherent mess that was the old project and from it's ashes you made a nicely ordered databank that is open for debate. However, cleaning means maintaining. That's where it went wrong. I understand you're a busy man, but if you are, why don't you give on the torch to someone else with more spare time?
And I just love how you managed to summarize my point in 3 lines. And it is good to know I'm not the only who has still hopes for this project.
But I'm not really keen on the part "Chimpo turned the mess into a nicely ordered databank that is open for debate". Indeed there is more order now, but there have never been a debate. We were leaved to ourselves since the first day, each one of us posting something different than the other. But this is not a debate, this is a mess. And looking at the past forums, this has turned worse than the others. Its true, it was a mess before Chimpo, but we actually managed to get some actual work completed (a good example would be the old Sonic 4 forum: when we moved it here, we already had an almost complete Sonic sheet and 2 full tiled zones. Yeah, maybe they weren't great, but it is more than what we have now).
The problem is, again, that Chimpo got bored after the first week. Only time he posted was to insult someone or to totally scrap a post. But this is not what a leader must do.
Chimpo got it right, but being a dictator means giving orders every day. Also, but this is a personal view, Chimpo's attitude isn't the one of a dictator, but just the one of a dick.
But now it is too late, because most of the contributors leaved the project. And just changing attitude or leaders won't change this truth.
I'm going to tell you all the truth. Since I believe me and test-object aren't the only one who still believe in the project, I think there is a way to save it, but not everyone may be happy with it.
Save the drama for your mama, kids. If you want to make the project progress without Chimpo's help, then do it; otherwise, stop whining every time there's a period of silence. The best way to move this project forward is through work, not words—do that and you'll find there will be significantly less to complain about.
That said, there will be no further discussion questioning the leadership of this project. Make contributions or kindly refrain from posting, please. Thanks!
I know I'm not a contributor. I just look on from the outside since I'm, honestly, working on a competing project. Here's my thoughts, though.
You can't accomplish anything no matter how many people you have if you don't have organization and direction. Instead of pointing fingers, pick up the ball and start being the change and progress you want to see in your project.
Sage words once again, but you know, it's really hard doing any work if you think said work has a very low chance of actually getting used.
Besides, the leadership gets all the glory and credit, but is responsible for the periods of silence. Having to deal with criticism is taking that responsibility. The staff is supposed to be making Sonic 4, the crowd is supposed to be expecting stuff. It's how it works. Pretending none of the suspense is there (by being obliged to only posting Work and no Words) doesn't do it good, rather it just frustrates the staff in the long run.
...just my two scents; please don't suspend/ban me. ;_;
That's the point, we don't want a game without Chimpo, we want a game WITH Chimpo contributing. The problem is he's not saying which direction he's invisioning. I'd gladly work on "Chimpo's Sonic Game" if Chimpo actually says what we need to do.
So that's it, then? Everyone's just gonna sit here pretending that a single person not sitting here every single day responding to every individual post prevents the rest of the "community" from contributing solid content to a "community project", putting it into context by actually attempting to prototype working models, and discussing them amongst themselves?
That's cool.. it's not like we have generalities in place, established technical guidelines, a working and documented game engine, a way to contact the developer of said engine, 811 standard Members, 231 "Oldbies", 63 Tech Members, and some people with enough time to sit around and write humongous posts about how this is all Chimpo's fault and follow-up sarcastically to the admin's response, or anything.
Uh, maybe people would like to see an established general project target (beyond the "just this one level goddamit!"), general uniform art concept, a solid say on stage mechanics, some sort of statement regarding plot elements etc. as well? Maybe posted all up in a happy pinned topic or something?
Because it's kind of hard to get inspired enough over random pastel artwork and selected pieces of outdoor scenery.
What's wrong with starting with one level?
That phrase has no explicit meaning. I can't imagine what blanket statements anyone can make at this point that make it any more possible to design art for the game
The concepts in the first few posts in this thread, maybe?
How does work on the first level hinge entirely on the plot, which actually has been discussed before the forum was trimmed, anyway?
Those were attempts to design the level. Anyone who has a problem with them should make their own
So I only imagined that Japanese Sonic 2 guide I have somewhere around here with pictures of locations that members of Sonic Team visited to get inspiration for their levels?
Seriously, this is ridiculous. Unless there are people at work in secrecy, which is something I completely understand, I don't see why there's no attempt to expand the scenery, most of the badnik concepts still have no sprite attempts, no large-scale attempts at full level layout have been made, and noone has made an attempt to implement any of the assets we DO have with E02. It's not exactly easy to make decisions about things that don't even exist, so I really don't see how there is any basis for these complaints
Nothing's wrong with starting with one level. Problem stems from reducing your whole concept to one level.
Cool. You're right, this does suffice, people are lazy and I'm totally stupid.
What the hell? I'm not saying it does. But let's say I am. Plot relates to level order, level order relates to gimmicks. Gimmicks are stuff you shouldn't use in the first level if they appear in the later ones.
It's not terribly important to know beforehand what the great picture is, but it does help...since you're trying to inspire people here, not leave them alone with tools and watch work pile up. It won't happen by itself.
Neither can I, but the man in charge posting an example of in-game graphics (level art) style and saying "THIS" wouldn't hurt. Yes, I know there's the sand and the trees, but that's one piece of one level, and personally I haven't got a clue in which direction I should be heading when attepting to 'expand' it. Detail, pattern, or cartoon? The whole game needs an uniform art style...so the first level is somewhat important, because its' style will define that of the whole game.
No, I believe you, I'm sure they actually visited places to get inspired, and not looked at photographs.
Stealth, you're a really cool guy and I don't wanna argue with you in any case. I'm telling you why there's such slow input on this project, though - for something so close to one man's vision he isn't doing much to get people to work with him, and the tl:dr posts up there are the result.
(I think I've outstayed my welcome though, Tweaker's gonna have my head for further discussing leadership matters, and I've got a feeling you're gonna tear me and all my posts apart for not making any public E02 builds of ... that other S4. <_< )
It's not that I've got something against you, either. I just don't see the issue, here
But Chimpo set up and participated in the art discussion here:
It seems that by large, he stops participating in the discussion when it more-or-less degrades to piddly crap. There doesn't really seem to be anything too terribly significant in the way of progress since he's last had anything to say about it. I know he's argued about that, too, but how many times does he have to say "STOP BITCHING ABOUT ONE GODDAMNED PIXEL" before he just stops?
It certainly seems to me that we already have plenty to work with for a while, and it just leaves me wondering why we don't have an actual level demo in progress yet. He's already shown that he approves of the in-progress level art and the layout concepts, and he's expressed interest in a couple of the proposed enemies. Shouldn't we have like, graph-paper layout construction, and expansion of the graphics into a useable tileset? Someone could get to work on that, someone could sprite those enemies, some people could get to other things like attempting to implement the current Sonic sprite set over that concept demo I did..
If you only care enough to complain, you must not really care
Well, it's not like any of us can actually DO that, is it? :P
You don't necessarily have to BE there to get the idea. Looking up pictures of scenery online is about the best we can ask for
I'm... not sure what you're saying here at all :/
I think it just simply boils down to the fact that people that can produce the work are more involved with their own projects.
Or don't know what to do. I'd love to help a bit with my sketches but I don't even know how I can help, what you guys need and all. I don't know if my previous works (for the previous Sonic 4 project) are still valid or not, or if you'd still need me ...
I'll be honest with you—I really, really don't give a shit about this project anymore; in fact, I stopped around the time that everything was going in circles with no real progression while Chimpo was bashing his face in at how retarded people were being about overriding decisions that he made. I can't say with certainty that he's sick of this shit, too, but I know I am. And gigantic rebellious walls of text aren't exactly my favorite thing to get linked to, you see. ;P
So no, I'm not going to "have anyone's head," but I am rather tempted to lock this topic so people can focus on matters of contribution instead of matters of the psychological cock. Figuratively speaking, of course. =P
This is a good point as well. It's not like Chimpo hasn't said what needs to be worked on—there are several topics, past and present, which describe that—there just hasn't been... well, anything done. Maybe it's because people are busy, as you said, or maybe they're just dyslexic or otherwise uninterested. In any case, no push has been given for one reason or another.
The best thing to do in this situation is to, like, harass Chimpo by PM and get him to give the official word or something. Or maybe the official wall of insults. That's the risk you're taking, I guess. =P
Well, yeah, but to make up for not being there, some analysis would also be good. That waterfall, for example - what makes it look like a waterfall and how to draw it to be in-style with the common art? I could go on posting walls of text and Gale examples, but I have my own style, which isn't close to this game's...so I can't really do that myself.
I can provide some pointers to make up a bit for clogging this topic, though:
- set up GraphicsGale, for all who yet haven't
- in the toolbar there is a 'grid' setting; make sure you have 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, 128x128 and 256x256 available
- focus all your palette on a single line at a time, in case you're not doing that; your special friends are colors with RGB values at 48, 112, 192, 255 and the like - those kind of look the least pastel to me
...an example of drawing blocks, wish I'd have GraphicsGale on my Eee to supplement them with screens:
- select the snap-to-grid, and draw a single filled square rectangle on 64x64 grid with your favorite palette color
- define two more palette registers, setting one color to be 'darker' and another 'lighter'
- shade that block at 45° angle (always, always shade all blocks and all art from a single source; best is either way 45° degree angle, highlighted from right in 'pleasant' levels and from the left in 'unpleasant' ones); with the lighter color in the top right, and darker color in the bottom left, leaving a 32x32 area of original color inside the square, highlight and shade around it - where the highlights meet, draw a 45° line with the original color separating them
- whew, you've got your 64x64 block, now copy/paste it nearby, pick a new color from the palette and make it one step lighter than the 'lighter' that was used (if your lightest color is too bright anyway, you should go pick a color that is one step down from your 'darker' color and follow the same principle on the shaded part)
- recolor the block one step lighter (in this example) by applying color #4 over the highlighted part, brighter color replacing the original color, and original color going where the shade was
- you're halfway done; you must now think of a pattern, in this example just use the checkered hill Green Hill's famous for, but smaller; you must go down to 8x8 level, and draw up alternating pattern of transparent and any color you're not using within actual art...it could be anything you like, but in this case, draw alternating checkered squares of 4x4 because it's freaking easy to do, just fill a 8x8 tile with two alternating squares of a single color, then copy/paste copies around it until you have a 64x64 block
- now copy/paste your two precious blocks elsewhere (backup) and apply the checkered "net" over whichever you want
- on the now overcheckered block fill every square of that color you're not using with transparency (you can do this quickly by doing it on the important bits and copy/pasting them, but be careful)
- copy/paste the skeletonized block over his solid brother and there you go
- this looks ugly, but it's basics...for a better look, try applying a repeating pattern other than checkers over there; use circles, triangles, whatever, but try to stick with 8x8 or 16x16 limits, or it could screw you later on
- and for the love of God keep the pattern simple or it will be hard on the eyes when actually moving
- make a 256x256 block using the patterned block you've just made; use copy/paste to "stretch" and "resize" the blocks, but always stick to the grid, or it won't look Sonicy
Part of the reason I haven't done more work on art is the one level at a time thing. Its a good idea in theory...I just have a certain art style, and this first level isn't quite it, so I don't have much to bring to the table for it, unlike how I might for later levels. And I hesitate to do more with them because this project seems to be stuck and going nowhere. It could be possible I'd be making the art all for nothing. Although the stuff I made previously, I'm rather proud of and if this project dies I may well take it and use it in a hack of my own or allow someone else to use it if I don't have the drive to do it myself.
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