Original Project Discussion Thread

Even if you want to do the LOL STORY IN SONIC SUCKS, look at how much in a game is defined by the basic outline:

Sonic 1:

It's about a cool blue hedgehog who can run supefast, who is an eco-warrior fighting against the crazy, quirky Dr. Robotnik who seals his friends in machines, and hunts for the mystical Chaos Emeralds to power them.

Because of this, in the game play, Sonic can run quite fast, he can curl up into a ball as an attack, when you blow up the badniks, animal comes out, and the design and direction of the bosses are infuenced by Robotnik's goals and personality. The idea of the Chaos emralds led to the special stages, and the concept of good/bad end.

Sonic 2:

Tails was introduced, Super Sonic, and the individual stages even had some backstory to them. Story developments lead to the awesome Sky Chase, WIng Fortress, and Death Egg.

Sonic 3:

Very story base. The idea of the floating Angel Island that had an ancient race lead to the creation of Knuckles, certain things that happen in the game no doubt led to Tails being able to fly in-game, Knuckles' action during cutscenes lead to his gliding punch/rocksmashing abilities, Hidden Palace Zone, Sky Sanctuary and Death Egg, I could go on and on.

Sonic 3& Knuckles were already heading in the direction of a meatier story. IMO Sonic Adventure is a fairly natural progression. People who don't like story can skip the cutscenes. But the point is you need to lay down the ideas first. Content is useless without Context.

 

That's very true. If you think about it, each area in Sonic 3 had a specific sort of purpose in the storyline—they just found a way for them to fit the cliches appropriately. I think we should definitely sketch some level ideas for each cliche, but they should fit whatever basic storyline we decide to start up first.

Personally, I think Sonic XG's storyline is a perfect sequel to Sonic 3, but it's kind of hard to use that considering it's already in use. =P

 

Edit: Wetflame kind of beat me to it.

You people trying to come up with big plots need to stop for second.

The thing is you don't need much of a plot to make a Sonic game that's going to be like a Genesis game. Look at Sonic 1 and 2. Robotnik wants to take over the world, so you go through the levels and beat him, while optionally collecting the chaos emeralds. Sonic CD has probably the most complex story with Amy being kidnapped, but for the most part your just going through beating up Robotnik and Metal Sonic, while optionally collecting the time stones and killing the badnik machines. S3K Robotnik wants to take over, but this time he tricked knuckles into thinking that Sonic is bad. So you beat robotnik, get knuckles head straight, and again optionally collect the chaos and super emeralds.

So don't go overboard thinking a plot out. If you want an elaborate story then you'll end up with a newer Sonic game. We don't want that we want a game that catches the simplicity yet awesome and fun you have in the Genesis games.

 

Yeah, but the problem with the Advance games was "generic" levels. In the older Sonic 2 upwards, especially 3 & Knuckles, it felt like every level had it's own story to sell. All of them had gadgets and landscape features that made them worthwhile.

Also, what's wrong with doing both? Story will motivate people to do things to fit in with it.

MAybe we don't need a geneic Ice Level. Maybe we'll come up with an awesome concept that it won't fit into. We need to think outside of the box here.

 

Sonic 3 & Knuckles is considered one of the best Sonic game of all time. It had a plot; it was an unspoken plot, mind you, but it was an involving plot that you could follow nonetheless.

While I don't think a Sonic game needs a story, one can definitely help enrich the gameplay experience. I always thought the cutscenes in Sonic 3 were cool, so why should we abandon such a prospect? It was only ever used once, after all.

 

Well it's up to you, if you want to turn this into a "Why don't WE make the next Sonic fanfic ?" then be my guest.

Also Wetflame, there's a difference between a premise and a plot. I'm not argueing against premises.

 

Cutscenes were my favourite bit in Sonic 3. It was story heavy, just without speach. I think we should do the same, but maybe with some occasional lines of VAing.

There's not really. You really have to do them both at once, at least. They're joined at the hip. Again, story can turn up new characters and gameplay ideas, so it needs to be done first. For example if we decide that if in the story Robotnik starts using humans with cybernetic implants, that will change some of the enemies we draw and how they act and affect the gameplay. We may need to rethink the gameplay to support a wider variety of enemies, and the level design to make their presence more believable(add doors etc.).

 

We don't need an epic plot, but we need a plot. If all you're complaining about is that people are going "too far" with storyline, that's okay, but don't act like it isn't necessary altogether.

 

A plot is composed by a premise, if not several. You only have a premise if you want to keep it "from point A to B".

Even if we do actually make something like the cutscenes in S3K, there still won't be any dialogue there, and I think that is a major plus, not only you do not need to make it into different languages, because it'll be easier to understand, and it is a lot simpler to tell a story, although you need to be creative.


Also, on the level design part, take a stroll through every game and see what are the most prominent levels in each Sonic game.

That should give us a nice idea of what to do.

 

Hey, I had a cool idea. What if we had kind of a Time-theme like in Sonic CD, but did something a bit different to flat out time Travel?

I was thinking it would be cool to have CLOCK UP, where everything slows down Matrix/Kamen Rider Kabuto/Viewtiful Joe style. It's not a new idea, but one gimmick I think would work well with Sonic given the theme. Think of how it could work - being able to jump through the spikey balls a large Orbonik has to hit it getting that one awkward moving platform that moves oo fast for you, beating the crap out of a helpless boss.

Super Sonic could have SUPER CLOCK UP which is twice as fast.

You'd need to be able to modify all movement and animation speeds, as well as the rate of climb of counters to make platforms appear, all at once. But I think it could be a cool gimmick. And make it so you don't "Have" to use it too, it just makes some bits easier. How often/how long you use it depends on the number of Chaos Emeralds, you need so many before you can do it maybe.

It could look really amazing visually, especially in levels with rain/waterfalls.

Maybe you could have certain points where you can do it, signs you have to flip like in Sonic CD, and then maintain top speed. Maybe that could be 1 Chaos Emerald Chaos Control, and then after so many you can do it on your own, and the signposts just recharge your energy.

Also, it would explain how Robotnik can outrun Sonic. HE IS FOLDING TIME.

You could have bosses that use CLOCK UP too, like Metal Sonic, but aren't as good at using it as you are.

 

Time travel sucks as it was arranged in Sonic CD.
The prolonged need for speed was irritating because you could lose the time-traveling ability before actually using it.

Timebreak in SATSR, now that was cool.

 

In my opinion you need to avoid any sort of game dominating gimmick like that clock up stuff whether it sounds cool or not. Its under the same premise of the ring link in chaotix and while some like it, most people do not because it's a) contrived and b) too far removed from normal gameplay. Just keep it simple, it worked for the first 4 games and the hand helds, no reason to change that.

As far as story. First figure out what is Robotnik doing. Trying to take over the world yes? By what means?...Spaceship/Death egg again? Maybe underground fortress or a weather machine, it doesn't matter, it only serves as motive to play the game. The game needs to have a set destination to aim towards. Then figure out how you intend to get there between your filler levels and your story levels. Regardless though, simplicity is key, with just enough twist to keep it interesting.

 

But you need to add something new to the gameplay as each Sonic game did too.

2 had Spindash, 3 had Shields/Flying/Climbing

The chaos control thing works because it makes sense within the context of Sonic and would actually be fun to do. You would have limited use of it and it wouldn't be necessary for most of the game either.

That's every reason to change that. The Handhelds were stale as hell. It was only by adding game dominating gimmicks that Rush was interesting.

It's not like we're giving him a sword... the problem is because of people's aversion to the gimmicks Sonic Team have been doing as of late, this game will end up entirely stale because nobody wants to try something new.

 

I do want to make some comments on the stuff you've done. The sound quality is quite nice, and it's pretty cool to listen to, but I can't help but think that the second song would fit more in with something like Streets of Rage.

I think that since the levels themselves haven't been decided upon, it's probably best to start work on simple things that we pretty much certainly will have to deal with anyway. This is stuff like title screen, 1-up, invincibility, speed shoes, special stage, end-of-act/zone, and such.

also: ICEknight: I'm not looking at S3D only for this. I mean, if you check out that first Unleashed trailer (or the soundalike S1GG credits) you can hear a decending third as heavily emphasized. Admittedly, it's more of a minor third, but it seems in Unleashed especially to have some pitch bend down to imply a minor third as well. That's a more modern example.

 

You want a premise? Then here you go: Eggman wants to conquer the world using its robots. Sonic wants to stop him. To succed he collect the seven Chaos Emerald, turns into Super Sonic and then defeats Eggman for good. The End.

Why are you all complaining about the plot? It is too soon to start a discussion about the plot.I know that a generical plot must be decided as soon as possible, but there are other things that are a lot more urgent now. You can't build a game around the plot, is the plot that must be builded around the game.
Allow me to make an example. Let's suppose we want to make a S3K style of plot (No VA, level progression, cutscenes) and we decide to make Metal Sonic playable. This means he must not only have a role, but a complete plot around him, which must connect to all the other characters plot. Now what happens if, at one point of the development, Metal Sonic, by whatever possible mean, can't be made playable or even worse he can't be in this game? We must start all over, with a new plot for everything just because a character will not appear. All right, this is an exageration, but you got the idea. The same idea can be applied to the Zones too. Let's suppose the plot says that Sonic must go to a Flying Battery type stage that must bring him to another Zone. Again something happens and there can't be a Flying Battery Zone, then how Sonic is supposed to reach that Zone?

All Sonic games have the same premise, and the plot must follow it. However the plot must also chain together the characters and the Zones. When the characters and the Zone are set, then the plot will come by itself.


About the CLOCK UP idea, sorry but it doesn't sound very good for a Sonic game.

 

Personally I'd like to see time slowing down around you as you build up speed like that clock up stuff.

Nothing game-breaking but noticeable nonetheless.

 

Because we don't want the same shit all over again. S3K rocked because it had a good story. We want to move forwards, not backwards.

Yeah, if it was a more subtle thing, maybe 2x slowdown, it could be fun, but Super Sonic could have a more significant verion of it.

 

I don't know. To me, there is a massive world of difference between gameplay additions such as the spin dash and shield abilities and adding an gimmicks such as time change. In the sense of say an FPS between getting a new gun, it still shoots bullets vs say bullet time. One just gives you a new way to work through the game, the other alters how you are playing completely. (this is negating the different tactics people use with different guns of course)

Again this is just my opinion but thats where the sonic series too the wrong turn. The games were heading in the right direction by adding the variety in Sonic 3, and even in Chaotix, the various item boxes lead to different temporary advantages and rewarded your exploration. I would whole heartedly approve of a time altering item box, perhaps a freeze time one, much like the one in Dynamite Headdy if anyone has ever played it, but thats just an if and a maybe. (perhaps grant leeway on super sonic perhaps since his gameplay is usually akin to having a selection of permanent item boxes ie, invincibility + speed)

Instead the series went with overskilling. I was never really a fan of "over-skilling" characters. Characters like shadow in todays games get away with all this deus ex machina "chaos random cool word" and Sonic ends up with pointless sliding and somersault abilities like in the advance games. Even in Rush, the addition of the boost severely diminished the effectiveness of the normal spin dash, but thats a moot point. If I were to steal one move from the newer games it would be that ability to switch between rolling and running in Sonic Advance 2 by double tapping forward simply because it was useful.

Again I feel simplicity is the key. Sonic curls, spins. rolls (and runs). He is a hedgehog. Anything after that should have been a temporary bonus if you are skilled enough to earn it and use it effectively. I doubt many of you will agree but as I said just my opinion

 

Perhaps the time slowing idea could be somehow incorporated into a monitor? That seems like an acceptable use of the concept.

 

I don't know, I don't mind Sonic being able to somersault or slide that much. Though grinding has got seriously old. I think that you're mistaken things that were added at the same time as the series decline, rather than causin it.