don't click here

One button philosophy in classic Sonic games

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Felik, May 10, 2023.

  1. Palas


    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
    I don't know if it's superior, abstractly speaking, but I do know it's how it was done and, because it was done that way, it had the consequences it had. The whole point of considering what Sonic can do and what the best options are is that you'll never spindash in a vacuum. You'll always do it because you considered the game's actual level design/hazard placement and the fact that the ring system exists, so -- worst case scenario -- you took your chances. This tension is always there, and it drives you to become more skilled at the game. And it only exists because there's nothing you can do that isn't throw yourself at whatever the level has to offer. And this framework, in turn, only exists because at some point Naka said "no, I want to there be only one action button" and Yasuhara replied "alright, let's make a good game out of it then".

    You can theoretically map whatever you want to whatever buttons or combinations of buttons you like. The process by which Sonic came to be and why it's played the way it plays, though, is historically recorded regardless of SRB2 or whatever attempt at a gotcha you may have in you, because that isn't the point. They can simply make it to where tapping or even holding spindash while moving doesn't allow you to spindash, but just make it to where you roll or does something else (maybe even nothing). But it turns out they (almost) never did, and there are also reasons for that.
  2. Chimes


    The One SSG-EG Maniac Member
    Okay as a SRB2 community veteran I can say that using that game's spindash as a point for the Genesis games of all things is already nebulous because SRB2's handling has changed so many times in functionality during that game's 20+ year lifespan. It's still unfinished.
    It wasn't even 6 years ago that they had to change how it functions on certain walls/surfaces, because the speeds would break!
  3. I think you might have just said my issue with what you guys are saying. You'll ALWAYS do it.

    Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any situations where, in practice, slowing down and stopping for this (very) temporary vulnerability actually posed a threat to me in cases where I want to stop and spindash. So in cases where that is the only consideration, it's basically a no brainer. Especially with the (over) generous health system that are rings.

    Not saying it never happens or the levels couldn't be designed to where that's a serious consideration. For example, could place some really aggressive, fast moving enemies in areas where you need momentum to overcome momentum based obstacles such as ramps or loops, which you might otherwise want a spindash for if you don't have enough speed to overcome the aforementioned obstacles efficiently. might want to instead backtrack a bit away from those enemies, far enough to have room to get up enough speed and then maybe roll through.

    Now how much control you lose when spindashing IS a serious consideration, but that is a whole seperate issue.

    Can you elaborate on some of those reasons for me?
    Last edited: May 16, 2023
  4. Alright, so how it CURRENTLY handles it, then. lol

    I am not a longtime fan of SRB2. Discovered it (relatively) recently, and haven't exactly seen much reason to visit older versions. All I can say is that the current versions are freaking awesome.
    Last edited: May 16, 2023
  5. Only for viewing

    Only for viewing

    aka Superstarxalien Member
    i haven't found a good use of two buttons in classic sonic gameplay besides amy in sonic advance 1. but i really just mean that giving sonic another button to do spinning-related actions is gonna be bizarre when you can already do all you need with just one button
  6. Palas


    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
    I don't want to sound dismissive here, but I tend to see it as a no-brainer for people like us, who have been playing for years and know the level layouts. When you have three rings and don't really know what's ahead of you, considering whether it's worth it to spindash at all is something you're more or less constantly doing, and sometime you'll feel like you HAVE TO do it because anywhere will probably be safer than the situation you're in. I remember this being the case very distinctly at Lava Reef Act 1, on many occasions. The health system is generous, but it does get desperate if yu don't know what you're doing and chasing blinking rings might even put you at more risk. I should know, I've done it plenty. I think it's worth to consider what playing Sonic is like when you're not very good at it yet, and that the process of getting good at it is where it really shines.

    But other than that, there's an aspect that is probably more important than the risk assessment thing: since I had to stop to achieve "natural" max speed, it's ensured that any momentum I get to mantain and any absurd speed I manage to achieve was because I used the environment in my favor somehow. I used a slope, I bounced off some badnik, I had to be at least a little clever while navigating the level. Having to stop means there's no way to be consistently powerful while platforming that doesn't use the level geometry, even if it does start off from a spindash. And it makes level design so much more important.

    I can't, actually. I can speculate, but nobody has, to my knowledge, talked about it. You could imagine that, when working in 3D, the whole problem of orientation made it so that the spindash becomes more useful as a navigation/steering/redirecting tool than whatever it was in 2D. So it'd be extremely cumbersome not to map it to a different button, especially since you'd eliminate a possible direction for it right off the bat if you used the same control scheme as before. Maybe the need to have precise control over Sonic's movement became such an issue that everything I just said about using the environment etc. became impossible and obsolete.
  7. Ah, now we're talking about maintaining a feeling of empowerment by maintaining momentum, something that feels awesome in itself even before you consider all the things you can use momentum to do in Classic Sonic.

    And can't really maintain that feeling if you need to constantly stop to charge up a spindash. Yeah, I'm with you a little bit.

    I don't personally experience those feelings really, at least not very often. Which is why I always say bring back something like CD's time travel or the Advance game's boost mode which provides a reason a bit more concrete, a bit more objective to maintain that flow (When CD's level design isn't ridiculous and places two springs facing each other to mindlessly time travel).

    Another thing is to have actual time trial stuff in Classic Sonic, encouraging speedrunning more.
  8. rata


    Trying to be useful somehow.
    3D Blast did it, but only because you can't use Down cos that would get you moving. For a 2D game you don't have that issue, so honestly it doesn't grant anything other than losing control of the spindash's charge. Remember, since you have to hold B button, the spindash revs automatically on 3DBlast. Sure I don't know who doesn't full blast on the 2D games anyways but it IS one thing you can do with Down+Action, and you're losing that if you go for just a dedicated button for it.

    For a fangame/hack where you have multiple characters with different abilities then that's completely a viable option, but we're far outside the scope of the classic vison of the game.
  9. You already said the response I have for this. Whenever you charge up a spindash, there's generally no reason to not go full speed, so nothing of real value is being sacrificed.

    And you could just simply not hold long enough to go full blast? Or make it to where holding it goes up to a certain speed, but mashing it or maybe holding it while mashing jump gets you up faster?

    I don't know man. These problems, if you regard them as such, have very easy solutions in my eyes.

    All I am saying is that there's nothing wrong with mapping the spindash button to a seperate one, 2D, 3D, or otherwise. There isn't much gained. But there isn't anything lost, either.
  10. Palas


    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
    Some might say the feeling of empowerment is great in itself (man, I miss Deef and his thoughts on Sonic's motion play), but that's not all: keeping momentum and speed is the most powerful you'll ever be relative to any perceived threat. Being in control, fast and curled, capable of going more or less anywhere you want doesn't just feel good: it's your best bet at surviving a stage. Which is the reason why later stages in all games have sharp angles and ceilings: they don't just look oppressive. They downright restrict your movement and your potential power, forcing you into being reactive. It's very subtle, but very powerful.

    That alone could be incentive enough to mantain said flow, but as I understand, that's not enough for you -- and, granted, I love that Sonic CD acknowledges how long you can actually keep it going, what with it being so important in the game.

    There are options, though, that don't rely so much on changes to the moveset. For instance, Sonic Advance's Egg Rocket is pretty nice in that it has a countdown instead of a time counter. That alone gives the necessary sense of urgency to enforce playing as a speedrunner.
    Last edited: May 17, 2023